Do you celebrate Christmas?

[M45510G1C]

Yod, ya roped me into this one. I'm not gonna touch on Christmas though, as I said I would not. I think I have said what I need to say on that particular matter.

I am as messianic as any of you but I disagree with how you have appropriated so many rabbinical ideas into biblical writ. For instance....

There is no commandment that the Torah be read every shabbat. It's a good idea...but a rabbinical tradition.

I never said that there was such a commandment.

Hanukkah? It celebrates the very people who first corrupted the High Priesthood and made it an office for the highest bidder. It is worse than Christmas in my opinion....but I have no problem celebrating it since it is a cultural holiday with some spiritual applications...like Christmas.

Yeshua celebrated Hannukah, it is not the same thing.

I don't want to be "against" you or Zayit but we seriously need to stop beating this dead horse of external matters.

Well, we're gonna disagree on some things. Thats fine, so long as we do not resort to name calling and callouness. We also must take care that it does not interfere with our walks with G-d or our friendships.

As you probably know, Boaz Michael of FFOZ will tell you that Christians are keeping 90% of the Torah...especially the weightier matters.

Certainly, so what's so hard about 10% more?

Let's stop being so judgemental. It only serves to divide the Body.

And there we have it, why I'm not commenting on this topic any longer. I do not mean to be judgemental, but due to the nature of this (and any other) forum it is inevitable that I will come off that way.

[Guest Zayit]

How can every day be holy? It means set apart, what is it being set apart from?

"Gee, G-d I don't see why you're gettin so freaked out about this here golden calf, we made it with things you created."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Bible is pretty clear that those who are strong and consider every day as holy to the Lord should not judge those who are weak and consider one day above another.

We are living every day in the Sabbath rest of Yeshua. Our works have ended.

I am in the unenviable position of arguing against people like yourself with whom I share many common beliefs. I, too, observe the Moedim and Christmas means nothing to me except a day when the rest of my family gathers together (thinking it is JEsus birthday)

I am as messianic as any of you but I disagree with how you have appropriated so many rabbinical ideas into biblical writ. For instance....

There is no commandment that the Torah be read every shabbat. It's a good idea...but a rabbinical tradition.

Hanukkah? It celebrates the very people who first corrupted the High Priesthood and made it an office for the highest bidder. It is worse than Christmas in my opinion....but I have no problem celebrating it since it is a cultural holiday with some spiritual applications...like Christmas.

I don't want to be "against" you or Zayit but we seriously need to stop beating this dead horse of external matters.

As you probably know, Boaz Michael of FFOZ will tell you that Christians are keeping 90% of the Torah...especially the weightier matters.

Let's stop being so judgemental. It only serves to divide the Body.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you read it as those who say the L-RD has a special day to come before him, as being weak???

I am as messianic as any of you but I disagree with how you have appropriated so many rabbinical ideas into biblical writ.

I have? Show me where I have taught as gospel any rabbinic ideas?

I have never told anyone to read the Torah on Shabbat, I do believe though that Shiloh posts the Torah parsha from FFOZ every week here.

I agree with you on Hanukkah, I too have studied the dark deep secrets. I have told no one ever to celebrate Hanukah.

I don't want to be "against" you or Zayit but we seriously need to stop beating this dead horse of external matters.

Sorry Yod, I don't agree, Truth to me is never an "external matter" it is the heart of Yeshua.

[Guest Zayit]

Let me ask, before you were saved were you working for your salvation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no...but am I going to start now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems Paul whom it seems many make their theolgy on said otherwise:

2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If it was automatic and everything is the same and all covered by grace what is there to work out?

We are living every day in the Sabbath rest of Yeshua. Our works have ended.

So then , which works have you ended?

[Guest yod]

dang Z

It's tough enough responding to one post without having 3 of them!!!

I am not saying you are judgemental but that is how these folks are perceiving it.

It's the hellenistic vs hebraic paradigm again. They simply can not understand where you are coming from because they have a different frame of reference. All we can do is show a little grace and avoid an arguement no matter who is right or wrong.

In most of these matters there is enough room to allow that.

Now allow me to respond to some of your comments

So you read it as those who say the L-RD has a special day to come before him, as being weak???

Yes, I do. All days belong to Him. We should be coming before Him every moment of every day. Our work is perhaps more important worship than our rest is because we glorify Him in the world.

I have? Show me where I have taught as gospel any rabbinic ideas?

I have never told anyone to read the Torah on Shabbat, I do believe though that Shiloh posts the Torah parsha from FFOZ every week here.

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to imply that YOU have. It's the whole Torah observant movement. My point is that if I were to say "You must not read the Torah on Shabbat because it began with Rabbis who hate Yeshua" it would be considered blasphemous in the messianic community.

I would never say that because it's a good tradition designed to honor the Lord....but that is the point I was hoping to make.

Sorry Yod, I don't agree, Truth to me is never an "external matter" it is the heart of Yeshua.

But the truth "in love" is all we are required to do. If I were to tell a lady the truth about how she looks today compared to when she was younger it would be cruelty.

True? Yes. Wrong? Yes.

Yeshua celebrated Hannukah, it is not the same thing.

That is not in the Bible. All it says is that He was in the portico of Solomon on that day.

To say He celebrated it is to imply something that isn't written. We are jumping all over christians here for the same thing.

[Guest yod]

Seems Paul whom it seems many make their theolgy on said otherwise:

2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If it was automatic and everything is the same and all covered by grace what is there to work out?

Which works justify me?

QUOTE

We are living every day in the Sabbath rest of Yeshua. Our works have ended.

So then , which works have you ended?

Every single stinking one of them except sacrificial love!!

It is not I who live, but Messiah who lives in me....through me...to me....for me....

And I respond in love out of gratitude instead of obligation.

[M45510G1C]

Ya know, Yod just after I posted I realized that my statement was incorrect, but thanks for pointing it out.

[Giaour]

It all comes down to what's in your heart. If you are celebrating Christmass with the sole intention of honoring the birth of our Savior. I think that He will see what you motivation is. Only God can judge us and He knows what is truely in our hearts.

[halifaxchristian]

As the late Tupac Shakur said:

"ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE ME"

[Guest Zayit]

dang Z

It's tough enough responding to one post without having 3 of them!!!

[Guest Zayit]

See first response in your post below:

Seems Paul whom it seems many make their theolgy on said otherwise:

2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If it was automatic and everything is the same and all covered by grace what is there to work out?

Which works justify me?

That is not what I asked, I asked what was there to work out? If our sins are all gone ( all laws nailed to cross) , and what we do now is covered by grace, what is there to work out? this passage exists so I wonder what he meant. If Yeshua is our salvation, then what is it we need to do after accepting it, and why is it done with fear and trembling?

QUOTE- Yod said-

We are living every day in the Sabbath rest of Yeshua. Our works have ended.

Zayit asked :So then , which works have you ended?

Every single stinking one of them except sacrificial love!!

It is not I who live, but Messiah who lives in me....through me...to me....for me....

And I respond in love out of gratitude instead of obligation.

Answered below

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you said "Our works have ended" and the only works I can think of would be what is in torah , but why would an unbelieving gentile be doing them for salvation when they didn't believe? This just doesn't make sense to me. So what works have ended, because we are talking works for salvation , nu?

And I gotta tell you if this life right here on earth is the Sabbath rest promised of G-d then I dont' see any reason for believing. I mean, this is a rest? My spirit is still entrapped inside my flesh body, and Everyday we are bombarded by the arrows of the enemy, we can't rest, we lean on the L-RD, ;we call on him , we hide under his wings and trust in his word, but we are still subject to this world and sin is the master and it tempts us everyday, I don't consider that a rest in any stretch of the imagination. The rest comes when Yeshua is ruling and HaSatan is locked away, then I will rest, then I can fully appreciate all the trials and tribulations that I have gone through to get there.

If this world is the rest, then I have no hope.