A question to those who would promote the idea that some of the bible is figurative and NOT literal

[Uber Genius]

13 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

Figurative language on a literal spiritual truth.

 

and you lost me when you went off book

Fair criticism.

I read,

"Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal." 

I read it too quickly and didn't catch the fact that you were using the first "literal" and the second "literal" differently.

first meaning- without figurative speech

second meaning - clear and exact meaning.

i edited my earlier post to reflect my misunderstanding.

[Riverwalker]

3 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I really don't think this use of the word "literally" in some posts on this thread is how most people use it.  It is a non-standard usage few will understand as intended.  Most English speakers understand the two statements "The Bible is literal" and "The Bible is true" as having two different meanings.  

To say "the roof fell in figuratively" means that something unexpected happened or something failed.  To say, ``the roof fell in literally'' means that an actual roof actually collapsed.   To say "the roof fell in at XYZ church when the pastor was caught in a moral sin" is figurative.  To say, "the roof fell in at XYZ church because of a heavy snowfall" is literal.  Both can be completely true statements, but only one is literal.

Truth can be expressed literally via concrete fact and statement.  It can be explained figuratively  via analogy and symbolism.  Virtually all Christians would agree Jesus' direct command to pluck out one's eye if it causes you to sin is figurative.  It is not a command to be physically obeyed.  It is a figurative way of explaining the seriousness of sin.  It is not a literal command of how to eliminate sin.

Anyone is of course to use any word in a non-standard way.  However, they shouldn't be surprised if people don't understand what they are saying.  I'd also respectfully suggest that arguing with people who don't understand the non-standard usage is not a fruitful way of engaging people.   Saying "we must take the bible literally without any of our own flavoring" basically says the Bible has no figurative passages which virtually all Christians would disagree with.  Saying "we must learn what the bible teaches without any of our own flavoring" is something that most Christians would agree with (at least as an ideal).  

 

Non sequitor

Use of language like that is optional. 

I do not believe God using figurative language to express a complex truth  falls into that genre

[Riverwalker]

2 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

Fair criticism.

I read,

"Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal." 

I read it too quickly and didn't catch the fact that you were using the first "literal" and the second "literal" differently.

first meaning- without figurative speech

second meaning - clear and exact meaning.

i edited my earlier post to reflect my misunderstanding.

The most well known usage of this type of figurative language  to express a literal truth are Jesus' Parables.  Was there a good Samaritan, who knows but the complex spiritual truth that Jesus fought to put over to the Jews, is that it is not how you were born that gives you value, but rather what you do. and that is not a truth we can pass off by being figurative

[Logostician]

14 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

On what...if not the bible, do you base your conclusions on?

Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal.

So If God said how and when he created the world, what authority do you site, to dispute the literalness of it?

Would the same source hold the same validity if it told you there is no spiritual realm, that there is no life after death, that there is no God, There is no Salvation, there is no hope?

Only the bible interprets the bible.  If you can find a scripture that disputes creation and that Adam and Ever were in the Beginning with God, please quote it, for I find Jesus saying...

Mark 10: 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

Watch the voice you let whisper in your ear, for the enemy comes and sows tares about the wheat, hoping to destroy the crop

Thank you.

I am happy to be one of those knuckleheads who never sees the need to dispute the Word of God.  I will continue to take it literally for as long as I am in this world.  And when I leave this world, my eyes will be further opened to a fuller understanding of what God has told us.

I don't know exactly how God did all the things he did, as he describes in his Word right now.  But that's my shortcoming.  Not his.  This is faith.  But it's also logic and reason.  I've never been to Canada, but I'm pretty sure it exists.  The trick for Bible doubters is to recognize their own inability to know everything, but continue to to use logic and reason, along with faith.  It will point to God.

In Ecclesiastes the smartest man in the world searches out all of the things of this world, seeking the deepest possible meaning for everything, and he cannot find worldly answers to his questions.  He struggles mightily throughout the whole book, and then he shows the depth of his wisdom in his conclusion.

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter.  Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

I agree with this wise man. 

[missmuffet]

23 minutes ago, Starise said:

Ok I'm back then. Horse is tired anyhow.

If there was wisdom there it was purely accidental. Thanks!

I sometimes wonder what God thinks looking down here at us all looking at the the word and sometimes disagreeing over it. And where do arguments come from?

False teaching.

[Riverwalker]

12 minutes ago, Starise said:

So I guess the key words here are "foolish disputes"? Which disputes are foolish? Which disputes are legitimate? What if one person sees a dispute as legitimate and another person sees it as foolish? 

How did Jesus handle some of this? His responses to the Pharisees are legendary. Don't attempt a verbal spar with Jesus.

What defines foolish and legitimate disputes is the willingness of each to hear....if not heed what the other says

[Riverwalker]

3 minutes ago, Logostician said:

Thank you.

I am happy to be one of those knuckleheads who never sees the need to dispute the Word of God.  I will continue to take it literally for as long as I am in this world.  And when I leave this world, my eyes will be further opened to a fuller understanding of what God has told us.

I don't know exactly how God did all the things he did, as he describes in his Word right now.  But that's my shortcoming.  Not his.  This is faith.  But it's also logic and reason.  I've never been to Canada, but I'm pretty sure it exists.  The trick for Bible doubters is to recognize their own inability to know everything, but continue to to use logic and reason, along with faith.  It will point to God.

In Ecclesiastes the smartest man in the world searches out all of the things of this world, seeking the deepest possible meaning for everything, and he cannot find worldly answers to his questions.  He struggles mightily throughout the whole book, and then he shows the depth of his wisdom in his conclusion.

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter.  Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

I agree with this wise man. 

This knucklehead bows to the wisdom of Sol0mon gifted from God

Edited February 22, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Riverwalker]

5 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Revelation 1:12

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Uhh... So what in the world could these 7 candlesticks be?  Real candlesticks you reckon, @Riverwalker?

 

Okay, you may not know it but you are kind of making my point when I said that figurative language is used to promote a complex Spiritual Literal Truth

And there is no more spiritually complex book than revelation

What they were is what John Saw and Related, Seven Golden Lampstands. What they represent is explained...by our Lord, literally

Revelation 1: 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the [m]angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

40 minutes ago, Logostician said:

Thank you.

I am happy to be one of those knuckleheads who never sees the need to dispute the Word of God.  I will continue to take it literally for as long as I am in this world.  And when I leave this world, my eyes will be further opened to a fuller understanding of what God has told us.

I don't know exactly how God did all the things he did, as he describes in his Word right now.  But that's my shortcoming.  Not his.  This is faith.  But it's also logic and reason.  I've never been to Canada, but I'm pretty sure it exists.  The trick for Bible doubters is to recognize their own inability to know everything, but continue to to use logic and reason, along with faith.  It will point to God.

In Ecclesiastes the smartest man in the world searches out all of the things of this world, seeking the deepest possible meaning for everything, and he cannot find worldly answers to his questions.  He struggles mightily throughout the whole book, and then he shows the depth of his wisdom in his conclusion.

Eccl 12:13

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter.  Fear God, and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

I agree with this wise man. 

1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem: 

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
    says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
    Everything is meaningless.” 

**Do you worshipers of Solomon agree with that statement? And the statements that follow. 

3 What do people gain from all their labors
    at which they toil under the sun?

 

(4 Generations come and generations go,
    but the earth remains forever.)

***(5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
    and hurries back to where it rises.)***

(6 The wind blows to the south
    and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
    ever returning on its course.)

(7 All streams flow into the sea,
    yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
    there they return again.) 

8 All things are wearisome,
    more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
    nor the ear its fill of hearing.
 

(9 What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;)
   ( there is nothing new under the sun.)

10 Is there anything of which one can say,
    “Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
    it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
    and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
    by those who follow them.

[Riverwalker]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

Define the word "literal."

If you intend to use the word "literal" in any way other than its dictionary definition then please provide that definition and explain why we should accommodate a definition that is other than the ordinary, common, and inherent meaning of the word. 

 

And then please explain how it is you were originally persuaded to accept and practice such a view and practice as using a word in a manner other than its ordinary, common, and inherent meaning. 

Feel free to use a separate post for the last request. 

If you saw the title of the post you would know that I reject the notion that something can not be both literal and figurative. Because there are n0 natural references for Spiritual truths, so figurative language is used, to best define the literal spiritual truth

The things of God are not defined or contained in the words or mere men.