Paul an Apostle?

[JohnD]

Acts 1:20–26 (AV)
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Verses 21-22 would rule out the Apostle Paul unless he was the rich young ruler.

(for the sake of nit pickers, the time frame given does not mean every moment of every day but the time frame from John the Baptist to the resurrection since the disciples did not all come on the same day and there were times the Lord Jesus sent them away to witness in differing towns etc.) But if Paul was not the rich young ruler, even though he had at least two in person visits from Christ Jesus himself, it would not fit the criteria the Apostle Peter lays out above.

But I would also note that they took it upon themselves to fill the vacancy of Judas... and they drew lots... between two men of their own choosing...

I tried this with a Porsche and a Lamborghini once... the lot fell to the Lamborghini but the dealer was not convinced of my claim on the car... LOL

Neither was Judas even a disciple. He was a tag along who presumed upon himself a disciple.

Luke 9:57–62 (AV)
57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Matthew 8:18–22 (AV)
18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.
19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

In both accounts Jesus did not respond to the certain man (not in Matthew he was a scribe which gives us insight as to how he could easily go into the Sanhedrin) ← dare we think of him as a spy? Jesus told the man in grief to follow him. He also did not respond to the man who wanted to kiss his family good-bye. 

Judas was not called. He was a tag along that Jesus did not weed out (for prophetic reasons). He was counted among the disciples which was generally called the 12 after the tradition of King David and his merry men (smile). 

John 6:70 (AV) **
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

** this could mean the 12 as a prophetic unit (like Israel is 12 tribes when in actual count is 13). Or it could mean Jesus accepted that these 12 were the ones who were following him whether he actually called them all or not... AND he specifically said one is a devil. 

John 17:12 (AV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

The account of Judas by the Apostle John:

John 12:3–6 (AV)
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

The twelfth disciple (the rich young ruler) deferred accepting his calling until he was on the road to Damascus.

He followed the Lord Jesus long enough to be convinced as a Yeshiva scholar that he is the Messiah, but walked away when he was called until the Road to Damascus when he saw the resurrected Lord (which blinded him) thus fulfilling what the Apostle Peter said in Acts 1 about the requirements.

[JohnD]

20 minutes ago, Kristin said:

Paul is declared THE Apostle to the gentiles. The twelve were for the Jews. Imagine how hungry the rest of the world was/is for God. Israel had the Truth and God rose up Paul for us. Hallelujah!!!  We have heard the Good News Gospel thanks to God’s Apostle to us who is Paul. 

Please read my message immediately following yours about the alleged 12th disciple of Jesus (Judas) and the rich young ruler.

Indeed Paul was called again with the specification to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. You are so right.

The direction the Gospel was heading in by then was already generally toward the Gentiles as the rejection of the Jewish people was growing to the point the Apostles who remained in Jerusalem were soon to be expelled. But Paul never gave up on the Jewish people. His commission was to the Gentiles... but his heart was for the Jewish people to the point he would sacrifice his own salvation for theirs if it were possible.

God never gave up on the Jews.

He never will.

But it is still their choice.

And one day God will bring about the circumstances needed to bring ALL ISRAEL into the Messiah.

It's called the Great Tribulation.

Sadly, that and the nearness of the Jews' absolute extermination as the 200 Million man army bivouacs in the valley of decision (at the foot of Harmegeddo) will be what it takes to force their hand to try the only thing they were unwilling to try least of all... crying out to the Lord Jesus for saving for nothing else will have worked.... HOSHA NAH ! YEHOSHUA HA MOSHIAKH !  SAVE NOW ! JESUS THE CHRIST !

Hosha nah is a familiar term to Gentile Christians once it is translated a couple of times. It's the word hosanna. 

Be blessed.

[warrior12]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I believe he was. His first missionary trip to America failed and he returned to England in December of 1737 despondent and doubtful and briefly practiced law.

Evidence please. 

[Starise]

I am satisfied beyond doubt of Paul as an apostle to the Gentiles. Thanks to those who contributed to the discussion. Many valid points were raised which directed me to hearty study.

As I mentioned early on this was mainly a concern for a good friend of mine who I directed to this thread. 

The relevancy of certain discussed information is interesting and might lead to more questions. 

According to Josheb, what is called Jesusism started in the late 18th-early 19th century when a  whole bunch of other heretical teachings emerged. I suspect it has existed way before this. Possibly this is the best documented cases of organized entry in modern times. My exposure may be limited. I can only say I had never heard of it before. In comparison to those other teachings which crop up from time to time.

That Paul said things he attributed to himself and not God's word clarifies at least some of this IMHO. This was only a few small instances though. 

From all my studies, Paul the man was not in any way backward i.e. when he approached Peter in front of his peers and said some pretty strong stuff. And this is the thing with the Bible, it shows everything and it leaves us to discover what it all means sometimes. That Paul didn't take Peter aside in person shows a lack of tact IMHO. The Bible does not hide this fact nor does it hide many other things that show the humanity of those in it.

 In order to accept Paul as a false teacher ( who taught about false teachers BTW) is to reject many statements made by others in the Bible in support of him. I mean, when God sends a man out as an apostle, I'm not sure how much more accreditation we can give him.

I'll admit Paul said some things lacking in couth. Compare that to a recent politician we all know. People who lack couth are often respected by a few and disliked by many others. Take the example of Paul being single and wishing all men were. This has anyone who married scratching their heads. Some women take what he said to mean , sit down and shut up. Maybe one reason we have some denominations that separate the men from the women. Men on one side. Women on the other. What I'm trying to say is many false things can be inferred by what Paul said. Paul never offset his comments about how women should be subordinate to men in the church with how beneficial and blessed men or the church were to have them. That might have helped. Instead we are left with many seemingly one sided comments that can easily be misunderstood.. I'm not in disagreement with Paul I just think that between his manner and the translations his statements are probably some of the most misunderstood in the Bible.

[JohnD]

Also the books of Luke and Acts were written by Paul's companion Dr. Luke who researched what began as Paul's trial documents to the court of Cesar (whom Paul officially appealed to). No doubt Theophilus was a magistrate of court clerk in Rome. Canonized as a Gospel and Acts of the Apostles.

[warrior12]

Here is a scripture verse that the natural man cannot acccept, but would dig in all forms and fashion to discredit or I should say argue with the word of God.  The bible is a book of words, yes that every man can read, but it is also  spiritual.  When humanistic viewpoints are the only criteria, then the humanistic mind would be bewildered and stuck or bogged or dogmatic .   

Below is one of the most profound statement of the Bible, because it speaks volume about the spiritual man and the carnal man. 

1 Corinthians 2 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thanks 

Edited January 3, 2021 by warrior12

[Starise]

4 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Here is a scripture verse that the natural man cannot acccept, but would dig in all forms and fashion to discredit or I should say argue with the word of God.  The bible is a book of words, yes that every man can read, but it is also  spiritual.  When humanistic viewpoints are the only criteria, then the humanistic mind would be bewildered and stuck or bogged or dogmatic .   

Below is one of the most profound statement of the Bible, because it speaks volume about the spiritual man and the carnal man. 

1 Corinthians 2 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thanks 

Good point. I would not disagree, but only add this scripture can be used as a "card" to pull to explain why someone isn't seeing something the way we want them to see it. Might be true, or it  might not be that they are spiritually hindered to understand.

Some men clearly are not saved. Other men are saved and still learning. This is why we need study and teachers.

[warrior12]

10 minutes ago, Starise said:

Good point. I would not disagree, but only add this scripture can be used as a "card" to pull to explain why someone isn't seeing something the way we want them to see it. Might be true, or it  might not be that they are spiritually hindered to understand.

Some men clearly are not saved. Other men are saved and still learning. This is why we need study and teachers.

For sure. Learning is a lifetime endeavor for all. 

Satan work is to draw men away from the word and the truth of the Bible.  So when he sends his adversaries, we have to learn also to recognize and refute them.  Also, the trials of life that the Lord lets us go through is to reinforce our faith, so that we can be a more effective witness.  

[Buddy D. Mouse]

John Wesley Hardin was an American gunfighter who later became a lawyer.

I think he has been confused somehow with John Wesley, the great Methodist.

[brotherdon]

³ And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

⁴ And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

⁵ And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

⁶ And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

⁷ And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

⁸ And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

⁹ And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

¹⁰ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

¹¹ And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

¹² And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

¹³ Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

¹⁴ And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

¹⁵ But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

¹⁶ For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

¹⁷ And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

¹⁸ And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. Acts 9:3-18

 

Paul is a chosen vessel of Yeshua.

  

¹⁹ For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

²⁰ Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

²¹ For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

²² For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

²³ But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

²⁴ But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

²⁵ Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

²⁶ For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

²⁷ But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

²⁸ And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

²⁹ That no flesh should glory in his presence.

³⁰ But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

³¹ That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:19-31