2 Corinthians 5:8 Absent from the Lord....

[Charlie744]

Enoob, I do understand your point, and I am not saying or suggesting Jesus could lie!

But because some may claim this is either a real event OR Jesus is lying (because He would never use a proper name in a parable) does not seem appropriate.  

How about Jesus is telling us a truth AND it is a parable even though He inserts the names of Lazarus and Moses, etc.?

It would be a very interesting topic or problem (depending on how one looks at it), to discuss among everyone in this forum.... I am sure we would get some great thoughts and also learn a lot about this... 

Personally, I have a problem with having to come to a conclusion that either Jesus lied or it speaks to reality after death (and by the way, this would contradict so many verses that speak / confirm of the “sleep after death” belief).

Charlie

Edited October 9, 2020 by Charlie744
Remove “not”

[Dennis1209]

16 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Dennis, you made a comment about the use of parables...and in particular, the parable of Lazarus I mentioned in this topic.

 I have never heard of this- that parables never use proper names!

For me, there is no question the Lazarus parable IS a parable and does not attempt to that he or anyone is alive and sees, feels, thinks, etc., after death.

Can you tell me where this comes from and why you think this must be? Thank you, Charlie 

 

Sure.

In the Hebrew - מָשָׁל mâshâl, maw-shawl' apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly, a pithy maxim, usually of metaphorical nature; hence, a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse):—byword, like, parable, proverb.

In the Greek - παραβάλλω parabállō, par-ab-al'-lo from G3844 and G906; to throw alongside, i.e. (reflexively) to reach a place, or (figuratively) to liken:—arrive, compare. παραβολή parabolḗ, par-ab-ol-ay' from G3846; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:—comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The word parable(s) is found 63 times in the KJV Bible. Nowhere I've found does it use proper names of people. Modern scholarship also concurs with that assessment.  

LAZARUS—an abbreviation of Eleazar, whom God helps. (1.) The brother of Mary and Martha of Bethany. He was raised from the dead after he had lain four days in the tomb (John 11:1–44). This miracle so excited the wrath of the Jews that they sought to put both Jesus and Lazarus to death.
(2.) A beggar named in the parable recorded Luke 16:19–31. 
Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.

 

[Charlie744]

Thank you Dennis.

Are you saying the Lazarus in the parable is the same as the Lazarus- brother of Mary and Martha?

More importantly, if this is NOT a parable, don’t you think the rich man would ask Lazarus / Abraham to give him MORE than just to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue?

At least ask for a bucket of water, a cold beer, or some ice cream?????

Charlie

 

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Dennis.

Are you saying the Lazarus in the parable is the same as the Lazarus- brother of Mary and Martha?

More importantly, if this is NOT a parable, don’t you think the rich man would ask Lazarus / Abraham to give him MORE than just to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue?

At least ask for a bucket of water, a cold beer, or some ice cream?????

Charlie

 

LOL. No, these are two different Lazarus's, one was a beggar and the other the brother of Mary and Martha of Bethany that Jesus resurrected. It's my opinion that why 'the former rich man' asked for only a drop of water; is because of his thirst and torment, to have pity and sympathy on him, he finally got around to humbling himself, seeing Lazarus in Abraham's bosom in the nice 70 degree air conditioning. 

Speaking of Lazarus, the one whom Jesus resurrected; ever thought about having to die 'twice'?

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [emphasis added]

[Charlie744]

Dennis, thank you for responding!

I certainly considered your comments and, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, (and more importantly, in a very joking way since there is a definite shortage of humor in this forum), I have to ask you to put down the weed! I don’t know what State you are texting from- maybe Colorado.... but it is NOT yet legal where I live! And I can tell from here that MUST be some powerful and good weed - I am getting some some second hand smoke from here! I might have to go onto another forum topic... maybe in another 10 minutes or so... no, not just yet!

Anyway, before I have to hit Burger King for those 2 for $5 Whoppers (get 4 of those bad boys), I will try and respond to your thoughts... 

So you are going to try and sell me on the idea that this IS NOT a parable just because Jesus names Lazarus within the story, AND, you contend it represents a true or real event even though:

1) this guy is burning up, his entire body, terrifying and relentless pain,

2) he is unable to sleep, eat, go to the bathroom, watch TV, read a book, ANYTHING other than cry out in excruciating pain, 

3) He is able to see Lazarus over a very wide chasm, meaning folks in BOTH places can literally see AND hear each other and he can watch Lazarus over there eating pizza, cold Corona (with lime), has cable, air conditioning, etc., and most likely some of the same weed you got.... 

4) and I am sure I could extend this forever...

BUT, despite ALL of that, you can only support your belief that this is NOT a parable because he, the rich man, he was able (torment beyond belief) was able to humble himself? Sure, that’s what I would be thinking while I am roasting away day after day!!!!!!

Dennis, I am going to have to give you a serious one time mulligan here! I understand your thoughts may be “hazy” (probably for the last two days I would guess), but you will have to come back sooner or later!

Look at all the symbolism within this PARABLE!  Even in your altered state you probably have not seen this kind of stuff - doesn’t that tell you something?

Dennis, put that stuff away and get back to me when you get back to earth! 

I will give you a “Joe Biden”, 

Come on man! Charlie 

[Adstar]

On 10/4/2020 at 9:36 AM, R. Hartono said:

The great multitude of Rev 7 were the living n the deceased whose soul was resurrected from Gehenna n then raptured to heaven as bride of Christ.

But the souls of under the Altar of Rev 6 were martrys in 7 years great tribulation who were beheaded when the 5th seal is opened n Christianity is banished all over the world.

No.. The rapture happens at the second comming of Jesus.. And thats after the tribulation..  The great multitude where departed Saints who have lived throughout History..

 

[R. Hartono]

3 minutes ago, Adstar said:

No.. The rapture happens at the second comming of Jesus.. And thats after the tribulation..  The great multitude where departed Saints who have lived throughout History..

 

Why wud God rapture the saints when the tribulation is over, ac is dead, the world returns to peace, just to take the saints to the clouds and make a U-TURN to return you to earth ?

[Adstar]

2 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Why wud God rapture the saints when the tribulation is over, ac is dead, the world returns to peace, just to take the saints to the clouds and make a U-TURN to return you to earth ?

Why Not? 

 

There will be living Saints on earth at the time of the return of Jesus.. So they cannot be resurrected..  They will have to be transformed into their perfect eternal condition while still being alive..

 

 

[R. Hartono]

7 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Why Not? 

 

There will be living Saints on earth at the time of the return of Jesus.. So they cannot be resurrected..  They will have to be transformed into their perfect eternal condition while still being alive..

 

 

They were the great multitude taken to the heaven in Revelation 7.

[Speks]

Before telling the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus had been speaking to the "Pharisees, who were lovers of money," about the careful and proper management of earthly assets. He warned against the unrighteous misuse of temporal wealth: "You cannot serve God and wealth” (Luke 16:13, NASB).

In the Lazarus parable, Jesus contrasts the bliss of salvation with the severity of the conscious punishment that awaits those whose god is opulent living. They will not be welcomed "into the eternal dwellings" (v.9). Where will they go? Elsewhere in Scripture Christ instructs us to store up "treasures in Heaven" where they will be eternally secure (Matthew 6:20); "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (v.21).

After death the man whose soul was absorbed by earthly comforts is tormented by severe physical and emotional agonies — he suffers pain in the heat of Hades and is distressed knowing his relatives could suffer the same torments. But there can be no escape. He cannot cross over to where Lazarus is being comforted. It's ironic that he now wants help from Lazarus, the destitute man who lay ignored sick and hungry at the rich man’s front door.

There are important lessons in this parable*. Christ here speaks out against the fatal distractions of temporal wealth, and affirms how they will lead to a terrible, fiery punishment. Christ's terminology is explicit and unsettling. In figurative language He teaches us how severely God will judge the unrighteous. It helps us to understand the dreadful nature of God's judgement against those who have not accepted Christ.

Set against this warning of punishment we realise that although the righteous may suffer dreadfully in this life, after death they will be securely comforted forever.  

*"an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated", (Thayer).

Edited October 10, 2020 by Speks