The Jesus you thought you knew...

[David1701]

20 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

These are great verses that should give all mankind hope.  If God is not willing that any should perish (the true penalty of sin), then who is going to stop Him from saving us all?  Certainly not mankind.  

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

Thanks for posting these two verses.

Joe

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (VW)

8 But, beloved, do not be unaware of this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Pet. 3:9 is a much abused verse, usually because the abuser takes it out of context and applies it to all of humanity, instead of the "beloved".

The context of this is that the Lord is long-suffering towards his beloved elect, nor having purposed any OF US to perish, but all OF US to come to repentance.  This is in contrast to the scoffers in verse 3. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by David1701

[David1701]

20 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

If you go and light a person on fire in this world, even the unbelievers know that this is wrong.  Christ is our loving and merciful Savior.  It is completely outside of His character to harm anyone.  The Doctrine of Hell is so ghastly, most people can't even think about it for very long.  How can you follow Christ when you believe that He is going to fail to save most of mankind as scripture says He will do?  And because He fails, you believe that He is going to torment in literal fire most of mankind without a redeeming purpose.  Where is God's love in your Hell doctrine?  Is has none.  Do you not know that Christ loves us all and is not willing that any should perish (the real penalty of sin)?  

Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment.  All mankind will be judged because it is a necessary part of the pathway that leads to salvation.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 4:2  And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christ's judgment fills the earth with God's "goodness" and is not like man's judgment.  God's judgment will "bless" the nations and make them righteous.   It burns away our spiritual impurities.

Judgment is good and necessary.  The fire is not literal as you believe.  

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe     

So many errors....

Jesus warned about hell more than anyone else.  If you hate that Jesus (the real one), then you need to realise that the "Jesus" you have invented is an IDOL, who cannot save anyone, because he does not exist.

Hell is punitive, not redemptive.

1 Cor. 3:13-15 is about Christian's WORKS being burned (or not), not the Christian himself being burned.

[JohnR7]

1 hour ago, Faithwilldo said:

Yes, we have a "will" and we can make choices.

If you are wearing old - dirty - wore out rags for clothing, you have to take them off to put brand new clothing on. Also it is a good idea to take a shower before you put your new clothing on. God does not rip the old clothing off of us and force us to take a shower and put the new clothing on. This is something people have to be willing to do. If they want to continue to be a filthy stinking mess then they have the right to do that if that is what they want to do. Jesus just makes it clear that you will not be invited to the wedding feast. If you do show up and you are  a filthy stinking mess they will throw you out and and refuse to give you any of the food. 

[Faithwilldo]

8 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

If you are wearing old - dirty - wore out rags for clothing, you have to take them off to put brand new clothing on. Also it is a good idea to take a shower before you put your new clothing on. God does not rip the old clothing off of us and force us to take a shower and put the new clothing on. This is something people have to be willing to do. If they want to continue to be a filthy stinking mess then they have the right to do that if that is what they want to do. Jesus just makes it clear that you will not be invited to the wedding feast. If you do show up and you are  a filthy stinking mess they will throw you out and and refuse to give you any of the food. 

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  It has nothing to do with scripture or proving mankind has a free will.  The verses I quoted are what we should believe.

Joe

[JohnR7]

14 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

I'm not sure what you are saying here. 

You said everyone is going to get saved and that clearly is not the case. You seem to be promoting hyper calvinism that God predetermines who is and who is not saved even before we are born. 

[Faithwilldo]

35 minutes ago, David1701 said:

So many errors....

Jesus warned about hell more than anyone else.  If you hate that Jesus (the real one), then you need to realise that the "Jesus" you have invented is an IDOL, who cannot save anyone, because he does not exist.

Hell is punitive, not redemptive.

1 Cor. 3:13-15 is about Christian's WORKS being burned (or not), not the Christian himself being burned.

Jesus did not warn about hell as you describe.  Scriptural hell is the unseen place of the dead.  It is not the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment).  They are two different things.

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 

1Cor 3:13-15  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cor 3:13-15 says that we are saved by fire.  Fire (Christ's judgment) purifies us.   It is for our benefit.  It teaches us righteousness.

Mat 3:11-12  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Christ will baptize us with the Holy Spirit AND with fire (judgment).  They are both essential for our salvation.  

Christ does not use literal fire in His judgment nor is His judgment eternal.  Judgment ends after we are spiritually purified.

Joe

[JohnR7]

13 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

You said everyone is going to get saved and that clearly is not the case.

The story goes on to talk about that in the Bible. I did not say anything about that. You can look it up yourself. As far at the lake of fire, that is the second death and the Bible does not directly teach what the second death is. The Bible does say God will "utterly pluck out and destroy". I tend to be an annihilationist.  God saves who is willing to be saved and destroyed those who are not willing. There are around 5 scriptures on hell fire and brimstone and around 50 scriptures about the destruction of those who reject God.  The one thing God has impressed on me many times is that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by JohnR7

[Faithwilldo]

2 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

You said everyone is going to get saved and that clearly is not the case. You seem to be promoting hyper calvinism that God predetermines who is and who is not saved even before we are born. 

All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" for them to be saved. 

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Why do you believe that the "restitution of all things" excludes most of mankind?

Christ breaks mankind's salvation into two parts.  The first part is when He brings in the harvest of First Fruits (the Elect).  That happens in this age.  God predetermines who will be in this group.  They receive the blessing of "ruling and reigning" with Christ in the final age until the full harvest of mankind is brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. 

Joe 

 

[JohnR7]

3 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

Why do you believe that the "restitution of all things" excludes most of mankind?

That is what I did for a living is restoration. There is a lot that gets thrown away. We save what we can and throw away what can not be saved. I would love to be a universalist and believe everyone will be saved but that is not what the Bible teaches. Moses, David & John in Rev all talk about names that are blotted out of the book of life. I believe all names are written in the Book of life and it is God's will to save whosoever is willing to be saved. "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17) The invitation is open to all but not everyone will accept God offer. 

[Faithwilldo]

3 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

The story goes on to talk about that in the Bible. I did not say anything about that. You can look it up yourself. As far at the lake of fire, that is the second death and the Bible does not directly teach what the second death is. The Bible does say God will "utterly pluck out and destroy". I tend to be an annihilationist.  God saves who is willing to be saved and destroyed those who are not willing. There are around 5 scriptures on hell fire and brimstone and around 50 scriptures about the destruction of those who reject God.  The one thing God has impressed on me many times is that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. 

We all MUST be destroyed in order to be born again.  Do you think you can be born again without your carnal nature being destroyed?

Christ makes us all "willing" to be saved once He gives us His gifts.  Do you think you were "willing" to be saved without Christ first doing His work in you?  If you believe you had that ability, then Christ did not perform all the work in saving you.  But of course, that cannot be.  No man can boast about anything they did to be saved.   You are not smarter or wiser than any lost person.  You were merely blessed to be saved first.  It is 100% the work of Christ.  Anything less would mean that we do have something to boast about and that would mean we are self-righteous - and that is what causes us to "fall away".  We can only be saved by faith alone (no works on our part).  Everything we need comes from Christ, even our confession of faith.   We are saved ONLY because it is God's will for us to be saved.  

John 1:12–13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you believe you are somehow spiritually better from birth than those who still reject Christ?  Scripture says that you would still be an unbeliever if Christ had not come to you with the Early Rain of the Spirit.  It is 100% His work that has made you into a new creature.  Scripture clearly says that you are not special in comparison to other people (God is not a respecter of persons).  The spiritual flaws that were inside you from birth are the same spiritual flaws that all mankind has from birth.   

Christ loves those who are still lost just as much as He loves us and He will not stop working until the last person is saved.  No man contributes toward their own salvation.  Christ is the Savior and He is NOT going to fail us, not anyone. 

Joe