Tongues?

[Paul James]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 

clearly the tenets of this is at baptism not that Paul did not speak in tongues... come on!

If the 120 in the upper room were actually converted to Christ when the Holy Spirit came to them, and the utterance of tongues was one of the signs of the presence and filling of the Holy Spirit; and the indication that the Holy Spirit had filled the members of Cornelius' household was the utterance of tongues; and when Paul laid hands on the disciples at Ephesus, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied;  then it is clear that conversion to Christ and the filling (baptism) with the Spirit was one and the same because of the three major examples of conversion/baptism with the Spirit.

Peter had no problem with tongues as the indication that the Holy Spirit had filled the members of Cornelius' household, because he reported to his colleagues at Jerusalem that "the Holy Spirit came to them in the same way He came to us".   Paul also knew that the Holy Spirit had filled the Ephesus believers because he observed them speaking in tongues and prophesying.   Therefore it doesn't take much intelligence to assume that someone being baptised with the Spirit will speak in tongues and prophesy.

To be consistent, the doctrine of the Trinity is built on less Scriptural evidence than tongues and prophecy accompanying the baptism with the Spirit, and yet most orthodox believers have no doubt about it.   Also, most believers have accepted purpose built church buildings, programmed services, the ceremonial, ritualised Lord's "snack", denominational labels, as integral components of Christian faith when the Scripture makes no mention of these things at all.

I think that even an elementary school child can comprehend that when Paul wrote at the beginning of 1 Corinthians that what he was writing was for "all believers everywhere, whom God "called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours" (1 Corinthians 1:2).

So Paul does not limit his writing to just the Corinthians, but to all Christians who will read the letter, and that includes us.  This would mean for a person with the most elementary comprehension skills that the whole book is meant for all Christian believers everywhere, including chapters 12 and 14.   If you are going to say that chapters 12 and 14 were just intended for the Apostolic Age, then you might as well say that the whole of 1 Corinthians was intended for First Century church members only and therefore not applicable for us 2000 years later.   

To take this silly notion a step further, we might as well say that all of Paul's letters to churches were just for church members during the Apostolic Age.   This means that man's "canon" of Scripture cannot apply to modern Christians because the bulk of the New Testament became obsolete when the last Apostle died.

The real reason why the supernatural disappeared from the churches is that paganism, fornication, adultery, man's authority, politics, ritual, and ceremony invaded the church, and because the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were for those called to be Christ's holy people, when professing Christians ceased being holy people, the supernatural Holy Spirit gifts ceased.  It is simple as that.

Cessationist notions came from fornicating, adulterous church leaders who convinced the people that the supernatural ceased because they were just meant to be temporary - keeping the real reasons hidden because they were not going to have their unholy practices revealed.

Who knows?  Perhaps the same reasons apply to many Cessationist churches today!

Edited January 29, 2021 by Paul James

[Paul James]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

there is only one as Scripture clearly states:
 

Eph 4:3-6

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
KJV
 

There is a strong indication that the one baptism is the baptism with the Spirit.  This is what the resurrected Jesus told the Apostles:

"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 1:4-5).

This shows clearly that Jesus intended water baptism to be replaced by baptism with the Holy Spirit.  This would give a different meaning to the references of baptism in the New Testament.  When Paul told the jailor to believe on Christ and be baptised, he could have meant baptism with the Spirit and not water.   The Ethiopian Eunich, because he knew of the baptism of John, assumed water baptism when he believed the gospel.  But there are no other references in the New Testament directly linked to water baptism for Christian believers.   Paul asked the Galatians whether God gave them the Spirit through works of the Law or by believing in Christ.   In this he is equating conversion to Christ by receiving the Spirit, in other words, being baptised with the Spirit.  Seeing that three major events involved conversion to Christ and being baptised with the Spirit happening at the same time, it can be safely accepted that the one baptism is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore seeing that Cessationists reject the baptism with the Spirit with the Scriptural indications of tongues and prophecy, and it is integrally linked with conversion to Christ so that receiving one is receiving the other, where does that place them in their Christian profession.  Does this mean that if they reject baptism with the Spirit, they fall short of genuine conversion to Christ as well?

Bears thinking abut.

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, enoob57 said:

the gifts of The Holy Spirit are in effect for today just not the sign gifts: The power Jesus did to verify Himself and His disciples is not seen today... how do I know this objectively from Scripture~ cause even Jesus' and His disciples enemies could not deny the miraculous events happening right before their eyes... we do not see this today or this discussion would not be!

Fake news!

show me where miracles, healings and the power of God working through believers does not occur in the world today?? 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

It is fine to me if Paul James calls himself a Presbyterian and not a charismatic - I hope it is fine with him if I call myself a Methodist AND a Charismatic - its all just a LABELS Game anyway - I was Methodist before I was a Charismatic (by 20 years) - I was also plain ole Methodist before I was a United Methodist

In fact I attended a conference in Dallas as a 9th-grader when the United Methodist church formed - Methodist Episcopal Church South and other Methodist bodies joined - it may be in the future it will Un-unite over gay issues, I don't know...

I align myself with Wesleyan/Arminian theology rather than a CORPORATION known as United Methodist Church - and as to what charismatic MOVEMENT I align myself with, I don't.

There are Oneness Pentecostals who speak in Tongues but deny the Trinity - perhaps there are FAKE CHARISMATICS like there is COUNTERFEIT MONEY - other than cash register jobs where I marked all bills 20 bucks and up to test for counterfeiting - I really never got into looking for counterfeiting, it never was a personal issue. Neither was it a personal issue to me to see "counterfeit Tongues" - I am fortunate never to have seen any, whether it goes on or not - I don't know.

 

[Waggles]

23 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

It is fine to me if Paul James calls himself a Presbyterian and not a charismatic - I hope it is fine with him if I call myself a Methodist AND a Charismatic - its all just a LABELS Game anyway - I was Methodist before I was a Charismatic (by 20 years) - I was also plain ole Methodist before I was a United Methodist

I have only ever known one Pentecostal church that Jesus himself brought me to.

Previously I was Roman Catholic, but that did not stop me from falling into a very sinful and worldly life. 

But on that day I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues the power of God cleansed me and miraculously healed me instantly from many addictions and ailments: tobacco, marijuana, injecting amphetamines etc, alcohol and my kidneys.

I truly knew that Jesus Christ is my God, my Lord and my saviour. I experienced the presence and truth of God within me. And I began praying in tongues in the Spirit.

From then on my daily walk is this battle between the old person and this new person; but in the power and work of the Holy Spirit and in doing the word of God I choose to be an overcomer (and to remain loyal and steadfast).

1Corinthians 2:4  and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 
5  so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 

2Corinthians 4:7  But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.

2Corinthians 10:4  For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

2Timothy 1:7  for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1Thessalonians 5:16  Rejoice always, 
17  pray without ceasing, 
18  give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 
19  Do not quench the Spirit. 

[Paul James]

4 hours ago, Episcopius said:

It is fine to me if Paul James calls himself a Presbyterian and not a charismatic - I hope it is fine with him if I call myself a Methodist AND a Charismatic - its all just a LABELS Game anyway - I was Methodist before I was a Charismatic (by 20 years) - I was also plain ole Methodist before I was a United Methodist

In fact I attended a conference in Dallas as a 9th-grader when the United Methodist church formed - Methodist Episcopal Church South and other Methodist bodies joined - it may be in the future it will Un-unite over gay issues, I don't know...

I align myself with Wesleyan/Arminian theology rather than a CORPORATION known as United Methodist Church - and as to what charismatic MOVEMENT I align myself with, I don't.

There are Oneness Pentecostals who speak in Tongues but deny the Trinity - perhaps there are FAKE CHARISMATICS like there is COUNTERFEIT MONEY - other than cash register jobs where I marked all bills 20 bucks and up to test for counterfeiting - I really never got into looking for counterfeiting, it never was a personal issue. Neither was it a personal issue to me to see "counterfeit Tongues" - I am fortunate never to have seen any, whether it goes on or not - I don't know.

 

I enjoyed reading your post.

I was a Pentecostal who became an Anglican, then a Baptist, after that a Presbyterian, and now a member of a Union (Methodist/Presbyterian) church!   I found that after a couple of weeks of joining each church, I became as mad as the rest of them.  I found that when the labels were removed, all that was left were ordinary people who loved the Lord.  It is interesting that the most powerful prophetic word that the Holy Spirit gave me was during a sermon by a Baptist pastor!

Three years ago I went back to a Sunday service at an AOG church (I received Christ in an AOG church).  It was spooky!  The pastor went around whispering in people's ears "Jesus is here", and expecting people to shake and fall over.  He tried it with me and I wasn't having any of it.  There was a woman writhing around the floor like a snake, and I told the pastor that she needed deliverance.  I don't think he liked me telling him that!   When the service was over, I got out of there, deciding never to go back to a church like that!   I was glad to get back to my Presbyterian church (at the time) where the people were normal!

It is interesting that tongues was mentioned in a church meeting just this week at my present church.  One old lady said to me, "Those Pentecostals;  they are the ones that go into trances aren't they?"   That sort of thing is the false information that is spread around to people who don't know anything about Pentecostals.   I told her that those who do that are the wacky wacky lunatic fringe crowd and not normal Pentecostal Christians.    If you went to a standard Sunday morning service in a Pentecostal church, it would not be much different to a Baptist or Presbyterian, or even your Methodist church!

[Buddy D. Mouse]

A 7th Day Adventist Church and a Presbyterian church in town shared a building for a long while - til the Presbyterians got a building of their own.

I enjoyed the stories of Waggles and Paul James.

I am in Waco, Texas - more Baptists than you can shake a stick at, Baylor University is the biggest Baptist college in the world. At one time I was one Methodist in a Greek class of NINETY Baptists.

I once referred to myself as an Ecumenical Loose Canon - Canon, not Cannon.

In Dallas, for a while we went to a Charismatic Episcopal church.

In San Antonio, I went to wednesday night Charismatic Catholic service...

[Justin Adams]

Interesting. I used to fly to Waco to see the Confederate Air Displays. They would fly up from Harlingen.

[enoob57]

As I have studied much on this subject for it is sweeping much under the carpet in thoughtless pursuits:
God since the begin of His Word has been about reasoning with fallen man through His Word... in fact we are told to try the spirits with the Word!

1 John 4:1

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
KJV

Now my point- tongues of today are vacated from reason and feelings is the promotion point of their use! So how can a person be obedient to God in trying of spirits if reasoning through verbal communication is blocked and the emotional aspects are all that can be ascertained?
Clearly it seems this verse is appropriate in the reasoning of this:
John 10:1-5

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
KJV
 

[Waggles]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

in fact we are told to try the spirits with the Word!

No this is unscriptural

1John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of *God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Thess 5:19  Quench not the Spirit. 
20  Despise not prophecies.
21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.