Why can't we blame God for things that happen?

[Faithwilldo]

17 minutes ago, CaptWalker said:

If one is a "chosen vessel" or one of God's ELECT, then yes He can and often does "interfere" in their lives to direct them to the right path HE has established and "willed" for them to be on, and can attest to that personally! But as far as the rest of the "whosoever's" they can of course receive salvation but God will not do with them what He does with His own "chosen" ones. So the real problem with such arguments is in not clarifying that and lumping us ALL together as far as what God decides or "causes" to happen, and to assume that He is just as involved and active in the lives of non-believing,non-praying heathens as He is with us, but it's just that "they" don't recognize it...?? Just trying to get a better understanding of these type "teachings".

These "teachings" come from scripture.  I recommend you read scripture with the mind set of looking for contradictions with your own beliefs.  If you read a scripture and it conflicts with what you believe, then reconsider what you believe.  Better yet, start with a clean slate and rebuild your beliefs strictly from scripture. 

Here are a few foundational verses that you should use to see if what you currently believe is in line with them.  I really am trying to help you understand but of course, Christ is the only one who can open your eyes to the truth.  I never recommend anyone accepting what someone says UNLESS you can see it from scripture yourself.  Otherwise, you will be lead by the hand (like Paul on the Damascus Road) by spiritually blind leaders (blind leading the blind).  Your salvation is between you and Christ - no one else.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?   Clearly says mankind does not have a free will. 

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?  Clearly says God is in full control of His creation and He ALWAYS accomplishes everything He sets out to do.  If He says it, it will happen. 

Psa 145:9   The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.  Clearly says God is good to believers and unbelievers alike.    

Lam 3:22  The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;  Clearly says that God love and mercy never end, even for those who remain lost after they die.  

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.  Clearly says Christ will bring salvation to ALL mankind - just not immediately but in "due time".

These are just a few but if you can accept them as truth, then a great deal of contradictions with scripture will disappear.

Joe

[Wesley L]

On 8/11/2020 at 2:58 AM, WowLookaDuck said:

God is sovereign. Why is it wrong to blame him for things that happen in our lives? 

What does sovereign truly mean.

Not that God is responsible for all things that happen. But all things happen because God allows it to happen, it was His choice.

A king that dictates every move of his servants is called a dictator.

A king that correct every step of man before he makes a mistake is called a nanny.

God chose not to be a dictator, nor did He choose to be our nanny.

God chose to give us free will to make free choices. Even when it meant that we would choose to do things against Him. But He always leaves the door open for us to repent and humbly come back to Him through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Faithwilldo]

On 8/21/2020 at 1:56 AM, Wesley L said:

What does sovereign truly mean.

Not that God is responsible for all things that happen. But all things happen because God allows it to happen, it was His choice.

A king that dictates every move of his servants is called a dictator.

A king that correct every step of man before he makes a mistake is called a nanny.

God chose not to be a dictator, nor did He choose to be our nanny.

God chose to give us free will to make free choices. Even when it meant that we would choose to do things against Him. But He always leaves the door open for us to repent and humbly come back to Him through faith in Jesus Christ.

I noticed you did not include any scriptures that support your statements.  Here are some verses that you should consider:

Mankind does not have a "free will":

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12  O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

God does not "allow" anything just to happen.  He causes all things to happen according to His will.  Nothing is left to chance.  God even creates evil and use evil for His purposes of good.

Isa 45:5-7  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory -- to the ages. Amen.

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

If mankind did have a "free will", then we would all contribute to our salvation which scripture says is not true.  We do not have the ability to make a "free will" decision to accept Christ.  If anyone believes that they do, then they have some level of self-righteousness which is the sin that leads to death.  Christ is the Savior and He does all the work - especially the spiritual work that happens between our ears.  God prepares our hearts to give all the answers of our tongue.  Even our confession of faith is a work of God.  When a person understands and believes this truth, then it is easy to understand how this verse is true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Wesley L]

12 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

I noticed you did not include any scriptures that support your statements.  Here are some verses that you should consider:

Mankind does not have a "free will":

Jer 10:23  I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12  O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

God does not "allow" anything just to happen.  He causes all things to happen according to His will.  Nothing is left to chance.  God even creates evil and use evil for His purposes of good.

Isa 45:5-7  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory -- to the ages. Amen.

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

If mankind did have a "free will", then we would all contribute to our salvation which scripture says is not true.  We do not have the ability to make a "free will" decision to accept Christ.  If anyone believes that they do, then they have some level of self-righteousness which is the sin that leads to death.  Christ is the Savior and He does all the work - especially the spiritual work that happens between our ears.  God prepares our hearts to give all the answers of our tongue.  Even our confession of faith is a work of God.  When a person understands and believes this truth, then it is easy to understand how this verse is true:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

 

Hi Joe,

Did God made you post your reply? Or did you choose to post it?

I believe in free will + God's sovereignty being active at the same time.
I believe that Jesus changed water into wine.
I believe that Jesus walked on the water.
I believe God split the sea apart for Moses.
I believe God spoke the universe into existence.
I believe in the trinity.
I believe Jesus rose from the dead.
But I don't understand any of it.

Free will in John 7:17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Wesley L

[Faithwilldo]

1 hour ago, Wesley L said:

Hi Joe,

Did God made you post your reply? Or did you choose to post it?

I believe in free will + God's sovereignty being active at the same time.
I believe that Jesus changed water into wine.
I believe that Jesus walked on the water.
I believe God split the sea apart for Moses.
I believe God spoke the universe into existence.
I believe in the trinity.
I believe Jesus rose from the dead.
But I don't understand any of it.

Free will in John 7:17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Yes, mankind has a will and can make choices.  That is not the issue.  There are plenty of verses that show we can make choices.  The issue is whether or not mankind can make un-caused choices.  Verses like the ones I posted address this issue and they clearly say that God is the cause behind the choices we make.  There are no verses that say we can make choices free from God's will.  All the verses that deal with this subject say God is the cause behind all things and scripture specially says that mankind's "will" is fully controlled by God.  

Do you believe this verse below?

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If a person believes that they accepted Christ from their own supposed "free will", then this verse above cannot be true.  God is the cause behind us coming to Christ.  If God does not act, then no one would be saved.  His gifts and calling are without our repentance. 

Scripture says that Paul is the pattern whereby all will be saved.  Paul's heart was full of hatred for Christ when he set out on the Damascus Road.  But when Christ came to him, everything changed in an moment of time.  Paul quickly fell to his knees and called Him "Lord".  This is how God calls us to Christ.  He comes to His temple "suddenly" and without our invitation.  

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Acts 22:6  And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Mar 13:35-36  Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:  Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

The verse below says we are "blessed" if we read, hear and keep the things written therein.  

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

We are blessed because it is God's "will" and "work" that causes it to happen.  It is not because we make a "free will" decision.

Phl 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The Day of Christ mentioned above is our moment of conversion.  There is a pathway that Christ moves us along which leads to our conversion.  Those who are blessed to be saved in this present age have had the "ends of the ages" come upon them.  This is the pathway that end-time prophecy teaches.  The end-time events are spiritual and they happen within us.  They do not happen out in the world has is commonly taught.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

When the "ends of the ages" come upon God's Elect in this age, they are converted.  When the actual end of the final age comes, everyone else will be converted and God will be "all in all".

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All who have died in Adam (all mankind) will be the same "all" who are made alive in Christ.  It happens by the "will" and "work" of God.

Joe

 

 

 

[Wesley L]

 

5 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Yes, mankind has a will and can make choices.  That is not the issue.  There are plenty of verses that show we can make choices.  The issue is whether or not mankind can make un-caused choices.  Verses like the ones I posted address this issue and they clearly say that God is the cause behind the choices we make.  There are no verses that say we can make choices free from God's will.  All the verses that deal with this subject say God is the cause behind all things and scripture specially says that mankind's "will" is fully controlled by God.  

Do you believe this verse below?

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I certainly do understand your point. I agree about God's sovereignty is clearly in the bible.
I just don't agree with your conclusion that we don't have free will. 

Yes, I believe that the bible tells us that God is sovereign.
Yes, I believe that the bible tells us that God has predestined His elect to become saved through faith in Jesus Christ.
But still, somehow God has given us free will to make free choices. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ, is a free will choice.
This combination is a mystery to me.

To try an attempt to understand the mystery:
At this very moment, the UEFA Champions leageau soccer finals match is ongoing. God already knew the final score before He created the world. God in His so vereignty allowed things to progress that way that one of the two teams would win today. (Paris SG or Bayern Munchen)
Do the players have free choice how to play? Do the players have any contribution to the outcome of the match?

Free will is given to us based on God's love. Without that, we would be robots acting and choosing because of other causes. Without that we would be actors in the world following a script. How could we be held accountable for our sins then?
Adam and Eve could choose. It wasn't God causing them to sin.
Bible says, His elect are predestined to become saved. Just like tonights UEFA soccer match is predestined to end in a certain score. God knew beforehand. But the thing is, WE don't know.

Does it mean that it would be futile for someone who is not elect to search for God with all his heart and soul?
Does it mean that it would be futile for someone who is not elect to look for Jesus?
This question is invalid, because only God knows who is elect.

Second attempt to try understanding the mystery:
There are two buttons. If both buttons are pressed the light goes on. Both buttons MUST be pressed exactly the same time.
You try many times, but you can't get the light on. Because even with 0.0000000001 sec difference, the light won't turn on.

But one day you press the button while God presses the  second button.
You decide to press the button in true faith. And while you do that, God presses the button exactly at the same moment.
The light goes on!

Who made it possible that the light went on? God.
Who predestined you to have faith in Him? God.
Who decided to pressed the button. You.

This may be a weak comparison. But this is how far my mind can go to try to understand the mystery.
But saying that we have no free will, will cause other biblical problems.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Wesley L

[CaptWalker]

....????????

[Faithwilldo]

1 hour ago, Wesley L said:

 

I certainly do understand your point. I agree about God's sovereignty is clearly in the bible.
I just don't agree with your conclusion that we don't have free will. 

Yes, I believe that the bible tells us that God is sovereign.
Yes, I believe that the bible tells us that God has predestined His elect to become saved through faith in Jesus Christ.
But still, somehow God has given us free will to make free choices. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ, is a free will choice.
This combination is a mystery to me.

To try an attempt to understand the mystery:
At this very moment, the UEFA Champions leageau soccer finals match is ongoing. God already knew the final score before He created the world. God in His so vereignty allowed things to progress that way that one of the two teams would win today. (Paris SG or Bayern Munchen)
Do the players have free choice how to play? Do the players have any contribution to the outcome of the match?

Free will is given to us based on God's love. Without that, we would be robots acting and choosing because of other causes. Without that we would be actors in the world following a script. How could we be held accountable for our sins then?
Adam and Eve could choose. It wasn't God causing them to sin.
Bible says, His elect are predestined to become saved. Just like tonights UEFA soccer match is predestined to end in a certain score. God knew beforehand. But the thing is, WE don't know.

Does it mean that it would be futile for someone who is not elect to search for God with all his heart and soul?
Does it mean that it would be futile for someone who is not elect to look for Jesus?
This question is invalid, because only God knows who is elect.

Second attempt to try understanding the mystery:
There are two buttons. If both buttons are pressed the light goes on. Both buttons MUST be pressed exactly the same time.
You try many times, but you can't get the light on. Because even with 0.0000000001 sec difference, the light won't turn on.

But one day you press the button while God presses the  second button.
You decide to press the button in true faith. And while you do that, God presses the button exactly at the same moment.
The light goes on!

Who made it possible that the light went on? God.
Who predestined you to have faith in Him? God.
Who decided to pressed the button. You.

This may be a weak comparison. But this is how far my mind can go to try to understand the mystery.
But saying that we have no free will, will cause other biblical problems.

 

Scripture is the only source that God has given us to understand His truth.  It seems that you have decided that mankind has a "free will" apart from scripture and are using analogies to justify your belief.  If a person can't support their belief with scripture, then it is advisable to pray & search the scripture to see what it does support.

Also, God knows the outcome of things BECAUSE He causes the results to be in accordance with His will.  There is no scripture that says God is a time traveler.

You said:

But still, somehow God has given us free will to make free choices. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ, is a free will choice.

There simply is no scripture that supports your statement.  In fact, scripture contradicts it.  

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 1:12–13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Plus, the Doctrine of Free Will adds to the work of Christ which cannot be done.  It insinuates that because a person makes a "free will" decision to follow Christ, they are more worthy than those who don't make the right "free will" choice.  And as a consequence, those who don't make the right decision are horribly punished in fire for all eternity without there any redeeming purpose to their suffering.   Where is the love of God in that belief?  

The false belief of "free will" is what makes Christians self-righteous.  They have fallen away from faith and have added their own works to their salvation.  They are stealing from Christ since our salvation is 100% His work.  When this happens, this verse applies: 

Heb 6:4-6  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why do you insist we have a "free will" when scripture contradicts that belief? 

The most common reason for believing in "free will" is because without that doctrine, Christ's justification for casting people to "hell" is lost.  If our salvation is truly and solely the work of Christ, then why does Christ harm people for something that was not within their power to do?  The answer:  He doesn't!

Here is what scripture says about who will be saved:

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And a person can't confess that Jesus is Lord except by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

1 Cor 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Is Christ really going to torment in literal fire most of mankind who confesses Him as Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit?  Absolutely NOT.  That belief is no where in scripture.  Here is what scripture actually says:

2Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

If God is not willing that any should perish (the real penalty of sin is death, not hell), then who can stop Him?  Why do you believe He will fail in saving all mankind?  Probably because of the Doctrine of Free Will.

Joe

[Wesley L]

10 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Scripture is the only source that God has given us to understand His truth.  It seems that you have decided that mankind has a "free will" apart from scripture and are using analogies to justify your belief.  If a person can't support their belief with scripture, then it is advisable to pray & search the scripture to see what it does support.

Also, God knows the outcome of things BECAUSE He causes the results to be in accordance with His will.  There is no scripture that says God is a time traveler.

You said:

But still, somehow God has given us free will to make free choices. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ, is a free will choice.

There simply is no scripture that supports your statement.  In fact, scripture contradicts it.  

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 1:12–13  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Plus, the Doctrine of Free Will adds to the work of Christ which cannot be done.  It insinuates that because a person makes a "free will" decision to follow Christ, they are more worthy than those who don't make the right "free will" choice.  And as a consequence, those who don't make the right decision are horribly punished in fire for all eternity without there any redeeming purpose to their suffering.   Where is the love of God in that belief?  

The false belief of "free will" is what makes Christians self-righteous.  They have fallen away from faith and have added their own works to their salvation.  They are stealing from Christ since our salvation is 100% His work.  When this happens, this verse applies: 

Heb 6:4-6  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why do you insist we have a "free will" when scripture contradicts that belief? 

The most common reason for believing in "free will" is because without that doctrine, Christ's justification for casting people to "hell" is lost.  If our salvation is truly and solely the work of Christ, then why does Christ harm people for something that was not within their power to do?  The answer:  He doesn't!

Here is what scripture says about who will be saved:

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And a person can't confess that Jesus is Lord except by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

1 Cor 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Is Christ really going to torment in literal fire most of mankind who confesses Him as Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit?  Absolutely NOT.  That belief is no where in scripture.  Here is what scripture actually says:

2Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, a
 nd it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

If God is not willing that any should perish (the real penalty of sin is death, not hell), then who can stop Him?  Why do you believe He will fail in saving all mankind?  Probably because of the Doctrine of Free Will.

Joe

Hello Joe,

I was writing a very long reply about free will.
Untill I noticed that an even more urgent matter is being shared by you. That God will save everybody.
This is quite a serious matter and totally unbiblical.

The way you draw your conclusion about free will, you do the same with drawing conclusion from 2 Peter 3:9.

"not willing that any should perish"

What does that truly mean? Does that truly mean that God will save all people? Not at all.
God also created mankind, not willing that mankind would sin. Does that mean that nobody would sin? We know the contrary. To challenge your belief that everybody is saved, please see these scriptures:

Matthew 7:13
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 13:41-43
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

By saying everybody will be saved by God, by saying there is no punishment in hell , you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Don't be blinded by your own desires. Be fair and use scripture to understand God's will, not using scripture to support your personal desires and personal understanding. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No true born again christian could boast about his choice for Christ. Without God that choice wouldn't even exist. It is the gift of God, His grace, His mercy, His Glory.
Choosing to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ is in the heart, it is not a work. God looks inside the heart.
Though, true faith never comes alone, it is always followed by works in spirit and in truth.

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Wesley L

[Faithwilldo]

5 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Hello Joe,

I was writing a very long reply about free will.
Untill I noticed that an even more urgent matter is being shared by you. That God will save everybody.
This is quite a serious matter and totally unbiblical.

The way you draw your conclusion about free will, you do the same with drawing conclusion from 2 Peter 3:9.

"not willing that any should perish"

What does that truly mean? Does that truly mean that God will save all people? Not at all.
God also created mankind, not willing that mankind would sin. Does that mean that nobody would sin? We know the contrary. To challenge your belief that everybody is saved, please see these scriptures:

Matthew 7:13
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 13:41-43
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

By saying everybody will be saved by God, by saying there is no punishment in hell , you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Don't be blinded by your own desires. Be fair and use scripture to understand God's will, not using scripture to support your personal desires and personal understanding. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No true born again christian could boast about his choice for Christ. Without God that choice wouldn't even exist. It is the gift of God, His grace, His mercy, His Glory.
Choosing to repent and have faith in Jesus Christ is in the heart, it is not a work. God looks inside the heart.
Though, true faith never comes alone, it is always followed by works in spirit and in truth.

 

You said:

God also created mankind, not willing that mankind would sin. Does that mean that nobody would sin?

God was not only willing that mankind would sin, He caused it to happen.

Prov 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13  An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam and Eve were made in such a way (subject to vanity) they could not have done anything but sin just like we all do.  Eve even displayed the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life BEFORE she sinned.

You said:

By saying everybody will be saved by God, by saying there is no punishment in hell , you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Don't be blinded by your own desires. Be fair and use scripture to understand God's will, not using scripture to support your personal desires and personal understanding. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone.

The Elect are the only ones who are going to be saved in this present age.  They are the First Fruits of God's harvest of mankind.  The main harvest of mankind occurs at the end of the final age. 

Our salvation requires judgment because it teaches us the righteousness of God.  Since the First Fruits are the first to be saved, they are the first to be judged:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Christ is only working at present to save His Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world.  All who remain lost in this age will be resurrected to judgment.  That judgment is symbolized by the term "Lake of Fire".  Fire represents the judgment of Christ.  It is not a literal place and there is no literal fire there.  Also, "hell" is NOT the penalty of sin - death is the penalty.

Here is what Christ's judgment will be like:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 9:8  And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psa 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Jer 9:24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.

Amos 5:24  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Mark 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Pet 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Prov 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment.  When Christ judges someone, they learn righteousness.  To believe that the lost will remain lost forever is not supported by scripture. 

The destruction that is mentioned in scripture is the destruction of our carnal nature (Old Man).  The Old Man is the one who sins and must die.  That is what water baptism symbolizes and what the two pathways Christ mentioned symbolizes.  We all must travel the pathway that leads to destruction.  Upon that destruction, the New Man in Christ is born.  After we are "born again", we must travel the path that leads to the narrow gate.  During that journey, we are judged by Christ so that we mature and produce His spiritual fruit.   We all must "live by every word" that Christ speaks:

Matt 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

God the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world.  

1John 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Why did the Father send Him?  Because He loves us.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

Will God's love for us fail?

1 Cor 13:8  Love never fails;

So why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save all mankind?  God does not ever fail at anything because that would be a sin.  

Here is what scripture says about the salvation of mankind:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Tim 4:10-11  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.  These things command and teach.

Rom 5:15  But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. 

Rom 5:18-19  so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Yes, it is my desire that all mankind be saved.  It is also God's desire and God always accomplishes what He desires:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Joe