Music in the churches

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, everyone.

This has been an issue for me in the past, and it still bugs me: reading music.

I grew up in church, my father being a Baptist minister and my mother being a pianist/organist in our church, and I grew up with the old hymnals in the pockets of the pews ahead of you.

Today, we have migrated to projectors on screens with worship leaders and worship teams.

I've noticed, however, that this is leading to musical illiteracy! At least in the hymnals and song books of old, we had the notes written on staffs in measures marked with timing. We don't have that anymore in most churches to which I have gone over the last twenty years or so. Even as a child, I could tell from the notes on top when to go up or down in pitch when singing the melody! Now, what do we have?

My mother was also an English major, and I grew up with her constant corrections in my grammar (some of which, quite frankly, NEVER took hold completely). I know and understand that living languages change, but there are REASONS for the punctuation that we use! There are good reasons for commas and their uses! Even the apostrophe is being lost in our modern, texting generation! One might see, "Johns cat" instead of "John's cat," being commonly written!

This seems like a VERY big deal to me, because how do we know if someone is meaning to say "its glory" (the possessive form) or "it's glory" (meaning "it is glory")?

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I don't think so. What do you think? Any opinions?

[WayneS]

As a 20 year praise team musician, guitar, I hope do not give too biased of an opinion here.

 Many people that grew up in a non-musical family can’t read music anyhow. I have found out that most people just learn the melody from repetition. Furthermore we had many very good singers that couldn’t read music and just get a recording of the song, listen to it many times to not only learn the melody but learn their harmony parts. It never bothered me because many of the singers that could not read music we’re also very faithful believers.

And most songs are in 4/4 which makes it easier for the average non-musical person to stay in time.

what was most important was that the drummer in the bass guitar player we’re good musicians. When the rhythm section solid, things go much better

My wife, who is a classically trained pianist, took several years on the praise band to take a chart with just chords and words and figure out how to get through it quickly. It is the difference between hearing then feeling the music and mechanically going through the music to be able to feel it. Either way works!

 

[Retrobyter]

46 minutes ago, WayneS said:

As a 20 year praise team musician, guitar, I hope do not give too biased of an opinion here.

 Many people that grew up in a non-musical family can’t read music anyhow. I have found out that most people just learn the melody from repetition. Furthermore we had many very good singers that couldn’t read music and just get a recording of the song, listen to it many times to not only learn the melody but learn their harmony parts. It never bothered me because many of the singers that could not read music we’re also very faithful believers.

And most songs are in 4/4 which makes it easier for the average non-musical person to stay in time.

what was most important was that the drummer in the bass guitar player we’re good musicians. When the rhythm section solid, things go much better

My wife, who is a classically trained pianist, took several years on the praise band to take a chart with just chords and words and figure out how to get through it quickly. It is the difference between hearing then feeling the music and mechanically going through the music to be able to feel it. Either way works!

Shabbat shalom, WayneS.

Thank you for your response. Please understand that I'm not saying that what is currently being done in the churches is bad in any way. All I'm saying is that we are "dumbing down" our church populations such that they can't read music anymore; they can't write THEIR OWN music anymore!

I remember as kids that we wrote our OWN music in groups! Some of it was no more than little diddies for plays we put on for the youth group, but we did our OWN music and lyrics for others to play and sing! Now, I doubt our children could do that!

[walla299]

Don't anyone flip out. I'm not saying modern churches are doing things "wrong" in services today.

I've gone to many churches over the years and that includes everything from singing psalms a capella to full blown worship bands and choirs. Many today don't read music anyway because they grew up in non-musical families like I did or they learned to play by ear and so I don't see that it matters all that much. I can see where it would matter very much to a musician though and I'm okay with that. (I have no musical talent any way, so I'll leave that to the musicians!)

I will say that I'm more concerned with the "dumbing down" of congregations when it comes to navigating a Bible. Before projectors and multimedia we had the psalters/hymnals and in many churches Bibles in the slots in front of each pew. If you wanted to follow along with a sermon you had to find the reference quick. Most preachers would slow down a bit to let everyone catch up, but I still remember the rustle of Bible pages during sermons years ago. You don't hear that today.

 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, walla299 said:

Don't anyone flip out. I'm not saying modern churches are doing things "wrong" in services today.

I've gone to many churches over the years and that includes everything from singing psalms a capella to full blown worship bands and choirs. Many today don't read music anyway because they grew up in non-musical families like I did or they learned to play by ear and so I don't see that it matters all that much. I can see where it would matter very much to a musician though and I'm okay with that. (I have no musical talent any way, so I'll leave that to the musicians!)

I will say that I'm more concerned with the "dumbing down" of congregations when it comes to navigating a Bible. Before projectors and multimedia we had the psalters/hymnals and in many churches Bibles in the slots in front of each pew. If you wanted to follow along with a sermon you had to find the reference quick. Most preachers would slow down a bit to let everyone catch up, but I still remember the rustle of Bible pages during sermons years ago. You don't hear that today.

 

Shalom, walla299.

Yes, that's certainly part of what I'm feeling about the whole matter. I know that now-a-days we have Bible apps like BibleHub and YouVersion and other such apps, but I, too, miss the rustle of pages. My dad used to give people clues as to how to look up a particular book. He'd say, to find the Psalms, hold the Bible upward with one hand on each cover and let it fall open to the middle of the book. One should be pretty close to the Psalms. Half the right side of the book again, and you should be close to Matthew.

One of the tasks that our children's church used to have was to learn the order of the Bible books, and we even had songs that taught the order. I was good at reciting the books of the Bible, and I could do it in one breath (gulping in a lot of air first and letting it out slowly as I said the names rapidly)! (Big deal, right?)

(Imagine my disappointment when I learned that the Jewish Bible, the TANAKH, was in a different order than the Christian "Old Testament!")

In Junior High and High School, we used to have Bible drills: The leader would say, "Bibles ready," (everyone would hold their Bibles above their heads with a hand on each cover, thumbs on the pages), give a reference to look up, and then say, "Go!" We'd have to quickly look up the verse and read it aloud when we found it. The winner was the first to read it! (I hardly ever won because my aim was at precision, not speed.) It was fun, and sometimes funny, when someone was reading from 2 Corinthians instead of 1 Corinthians, for instance, or was even reading the right book, wrong chapter, and right verse! Then, the goal was to figure out from where the person who read first was truly reading! It was often hilarious as we exhausted ourselves in searches over and over!

We'd have Scripture memorization contests in which kids would memorize whole passages or whole books of the Bible (usually the shorter ones). The person would quote the passage aloud and the rest were to follow along in their Bible. If the person quoting made a mistake, we were to raise our hands as a sign we detected an error! There was nothing worse than to be quoting along and all of a sudden see every hand in the crowd go up! The leader of the contest would put a mark there in his or her Bible, and then the next person would try. The first to make it all the way through the passage without errors and the fastest, would be declared the winner.

As valedictorian of my Christian High School, my valedictorian speech was 150 verses of the Bible put in a meaningful order, said, of course, from memory. Many of those verses were whole chapters of the Bible strung together with other similar passages to give the speech. I was allowed one 3x5 cue card in case I froze on a verse. I remember that part of the speech was from Isaiah 53:1-12.

I remember HAVING FUN learning the Bible when I was growing up! I hope our kids today are getting the same kind of training.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Retrobyter
I forgot a part of the routine.

[walla299]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I remember HAVING FUN learning the Bible when I was growing up! I hope our kids today are getting the same kind of training.

Having fun learning the Bible? Nah, can't do that. It would make too much sense! 

I grew up in a  non-religious household, got saved anyway, and didn't really get into the scriptures until I was in the Air Force years later. Church was a challenge while deployed to different places and language, culture, and other religions could all create issues. The Lord always provided a way to get together even if it was just a bunch of folk sitting in a circle in an aircraft hanger taking turns reading the Bible out loud.

 

[BeauJangles]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I remember HAVING FUN learning the Bible when I was growing up! I hope our kids today are getting the same kind of training.

 

Indeed it should be. Sunday Bible School was a wonderful thing for me. We learned of the Old and New Testament stories and songs such as, Jesus Loves Me and The B-I-B-L-E, That's The Book For Me. 

 

• Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
  1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 | KJV

  gratitude prayer
• The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty;
  he will save,
  he will rejoice over thee with joy;
  he will rest in his love,
  he will joy over thee with singing.
  Zephaniah 3:17 | KJV

  God redeemer singing
• Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer.
  Romans 12:12 | KJV

  prayer patience
• Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.
  Philippians 4:4 | KJV

  God
• In the multitude of my thoughts within me
  thy comforts delight my soul.
  Psalm 94:19 | KJV

  worrying comforter
• This is the day which the Lord hath made;
  we will rejoice and be glad in it.
  Psalm 118:24 | KJV

  creation life
• Although the fig tree shall not blossom,
  neither shall fruit be in the vines;
  the labour of the olive shall fail,
  and the fields shall yield no meat;
  the flock shall be cut off from the fold,
  and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
  Yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
  I will joy in the God of my salvation.
  Habakkuk 3:17-18 | KJV

  salvation worship harvest
• Thou wilt shew me the path of life:
  in thy presence is fulness of joy;
  at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
  Psalm 16:11 | KJV

  life nearness
• Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
  1 Peter 1:8-9 | KJV

  faith salvation
• I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
  my soul shall be joyful in my God;
  for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation,
  he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,
  as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments,
  and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
  Isaiah 61:10 | KJV

  righteousness redeemer marriage
• Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
  John 16:24 | KJV

  reliability receiving blameless
• Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
  2 Corinthians 9:7 | KJV

  giving heart generosity
• Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
  2 Corinthians 12:10 | KJV

  strength persecution weakness
• A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth:
  and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
  Proverbs 15:23 | KJV

  speaking
• Thou art my hiding place;
  thou shalt preserve me from trouble;
  thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah
  Psalm 32:7 | KJV

  safety protection singing
• But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
  Galatians 5:22-23 | KJV

  law Spirit blessing
• Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
  Romans 12:15 | KJV

  compassion sadness
• That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.
  Romans 15:32 | KJV

  obedience dependence
• Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever:
  for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
  Psalm 119:111 | KJV

  law heart
• But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
  Hebrews 11:6 | KJV

  faith reward seeking
• For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people:
  he will beautify the meek with salvation.
  Psalm 149:4 | KJV

  humility blessing
• But godliness with contentment is great gain.
  1 Timothy 6:6 | KJV

  faith materialism contentment
• Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy.
  1 Timothy 6:17 | KJV

  money materialism pride
• I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies,
  as much as in all riches.
  Psalm 119:14 | KJV

  law money
• The father of the righteous shall greatly rejoice:
  and he that begetteth a wise child shall have joy of him.
  Proverbs 23:24 | KJV

  wisdom family

Edited August 9, 2020 by BeauJangles

[BeauJangles]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This has been an issue for me in the past, and it still bugs me: reading music.

I have been a musician for many years and play at least five instruments all by ear. Every attempt to learn reading music failed miserably. It could be possibly attributed to a terrible mathematically challenged way of perception. Numbers in complicated formulations confuse my slight case of dyslexia. My reading and writing comprehensive skills are pretty good, but well, that's where the road ends I'm afraid. 

[Deadworm]

In my view, the best of contemporary praise choruses are more enjoyable and conducive to worship than the best of the old hymns.  But the lyrics of the typical praise chorus are typically theologically shallow and far too repetitive.  The best way is to project the lyrics on a screen against a background of ever changing beautiful scenery.

I love the true story of the pastor who introduced a new hymn to his congregation, enraging members who thought that melody was a godless bar tune.  That hymn was "What a Friend We Have in Jesus!"  The worst policy is to insist: "We mustn't entertain with the Gospel!"  If I really enjoy the rhythm and beat of Christian music, my spirit soars and I can worship more intensely and fully.  We need the foot-stomping, hand-clapping hymns and praise choruses.

[BeauJangles]

45 minutes ago, Deadworm said:

"We mustn't entertain with the Gospel!"

I suppose that would greatly interpret what we refer to as entertainment. God's word in Psalms and according to other scriptures have been used indicating praise, rejoicing,  and worship, for hundreds of years now. Does this mean we should stop now? Hardly. Even more so I would think. Time is growing short. What do you think we will be doing in Heaven? Just sitting around plunking on harps and hanging out with the angels and saints? 

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• O Lord, thou art my God;
  I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name;
  for thou hast done wonderful things;
  thy counsels of old
  are faithfulness and truth.
  Isaiah 25:1 | KJV

  reliability God worship
• Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord.
  Praise ye the Lord.
  Psalm 150:6 | KJV

  worship
• And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
  Acts 16:25 | KJV

  worship prayer listening
• Bless the Lord, O my soul:
  and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
  Psalm 103:1 | KJV

  holiness worship soul
• Why art thou cast down, O my soul?
  and why art thou disquieted within me?
  hope thou in God:
  for I shall yet praise him,
  who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
  Psalm 42:11 | KJV

  worship hope soul
• I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole heart;
  I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.
  Psalm 9:1 | KJV

  worship gratitude miracles
• For thou hast possessed my reins:
  thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made:
  marvellous are thy works;
  and that my soul knoweth right well.
  Psalm 139:13-14 | KJV

  creation miracles soul
• The Lord is my strength and my shield;
  my heart trusted in him, and I am helped:
  therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth;
  and with my song will I praise him.
  Psalm 28:7 | KJV

  trust worship strength
• Because thy lovingkindness is better than life,
  my lips shall praise thee.
  Thus will I bless thee while I live:
  I will lift up my hands in thy name.
  Psalm 63:3-4 | KJV

  love life worship
• Let my mouth be filled with thy praise
  and with thy honour all the day.
  Psalm 71:8 | KJV

  speaking worship
• And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
  Revelation 5:13 | KJV

  creation worship gratitude
• Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
  Colossians 3:16 | KJV

  Word of God learning worship
• Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised;
  and his greatness is unsearchable.
  Psalm 145:3 | KJV

  worship understanding almighty
• O give thanks unto the Lord; call upon his name:
  make known his deeds among the people.
  Psalm 105:1 | KJV

  speaking evangelism worship
• Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
  Philippians 4:8 | KJV

  truth righteousness thoughts
• I will bless the Lord at all times:
  his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
  Psalm 34:1 | KJV

  worship blessing speaking
• In God I will praise his word,
  in God I have put my trust;
  I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
  Psalm 56:4 | KJV

  trust fear Word of God
• For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
  Romans 14:11 | KJV

  humility worship acknowledging
• And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
  Acts 2:46-47 | KJV

  worship food community
• I cried unto him with my mouth,
  and he was extolled with my tongue.
  Psalm 66:17 | KJV

  worship prayer singing
• Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
  James 3:10 | KJV

  sin speaking worship
• And in that day shall ye say,
  Praise the Lord, call upon his name,
  declare his doings among the people,
  make mention that his name is exalted.
  Isaiah 12:4 | KJV

  speaking evangelism worship
• I will praise thee with uprightness of heart,
  when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
  Psalm 119:7 | KJV

  law worship heart
• Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
  And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
  Job 1:20-21 | KJV

  worship suffering sadness
• I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers,
  who hast given me wisdom and might,
  and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee:
  for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
  Daniel 2:23 | KJV

  worship wisdom