Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The view that Daniel 8 pertains to the End Times is another common misconception, based largely upon bad translations of some of the significant passages of that chapter. Case in point, the two mentions of "the time of the end" highlighted above. The Hebrew actually reads, "at a time of an end..." I dissect this chapter in some detail, showing the literal Hebrew text, in a two articles beginning here: 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

Here is an extensive passage from the relevant part of the second article:

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

 

Hello WilliamL

                      Nice work, I am in agreement about the term "time of the end" that does not mean the events of Revelation in these passages. I have found a number of key places where a translation difficulty results in a misunderstanding of prophecy. These phrases are simply talking about the end of the events in the vision Daniel had been shown in ch.8. Then we go into visions about the Greeks in ch 11. 

Yet ch. 9 goes well beyond these times and can calculate to the time of Jesus. That chapter does not demand the city be destroyed within the 70 weeks. (I believe the 70th week is past BTW)  AND ch 12 goes forward to the time when people rise from the dust of the Earth.

Knowing that the events of Antiochus were past, Jesus speaks of an abomination of desolation being in an upcoming future time from His point in history. Saying that it would be seen in the Holy Place. Would you then consider it still future?  

[WilliamL]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:14 PM, Uriah said:

Yet ch. 9 goes well beyond these times and can calculate to the time of Jesus. That chapter does not demand the city be destroyed within the 70 weeks. (I believe the 70th week is past BTW)  AND ch 12 goes forward to the time when people rise from the dust of the Earth.

Thanks for the comments, we are in agreement about most things. I do disagree with the statement in bold, however: the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary 9:26 is speaking of the events more specifically detailed in verse 27.

On 4/16/2019 at 8:14 PM, Uriah said:

Knowing that the events of Antiochus were past, Jesus speaks of an abomination of desolation being in an upcoming future time from His point in history. Saying that it would be seen in the Holy Place. Would you then consider it still future?  

Certainly. The words of Daniel to which Jesus referred in Matthew 24:15 are found in Daniel 12:11, the prophecy of the 1290 days. Detailed in my blog post here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

Whereas the abomination of desolation committed by Antioch were prophesied in Daniel 11:31.

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Thanks for the comments, we are in agreement about most things. I do disagree with the statement in bold, however: the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary 9:26 is speaking of the events more specifically detailed in verse 27.

Certainly. The words of Daniel to which Jesus referred in Matthew 24:15 are found in Daniel 12:11, the prophecy of the 1290 days. Detailed in my blog post here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

Whereas the abomination of desolation committed by Antioch were prophesied in Daniel 11:31.

Ok I see that the difference may be that I consider v. 27 referring to Jesus at the one who confirms the covenant and am assuming you do not

Dan 9:27- And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 

(covenant/testament)

Matt 26:28- For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This goes back to Abraham so that all families of the Earth would be blessed. That is how the covenant was strengthened/confirmed.

[missmuffet]

On 4/9/2019 at 12:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:40 “In a time of an end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many  shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Cushites shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time."

-- the latter phrase in bold referring to the Great Tribulation.

Whether you are pre-, mid-, or post-trib, all of the events leading up to verse 12:1 may well occur while you are still here.

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

(For one example, who would invade Egypt now, while el-Sisi is in power? Would he need to be overthrown first, in order to cause the King of the North to subdue a different government in Egypt?)

 

 

I don't know what God has planned. I am not God. I do know that the Church has to be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

[Uriah]

17 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I don't know what God has planned. I am not God. I do know that the Church has to be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

Hi missmuffet

                    I understand your position on the 7 yr. tribulation. but the 7 yr. teaching is unsupported by the bible. People get that by believing a misreading of Dan. 7. And if you look at the trumpets and vials in Revelation, you'll see that they repeat the same judgments, while the seals are an overview of the same period. We would need to have the mountains and islands be moved out of their places twice, darkness/sun referred to twice, Euphrates referred to twice, and so on. 

Jesus taught using as illustrations the stories of Noah and lot. In both cases NOBODY was removed until the day that God's judgment came down out of the sky. That will be at the end. And then Jesus said "...it will be just like this when the Son of Man is revealed".

[iamlamad]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:31 PM, Montana Marv said:

Edom, Moab and Ammon will be safe zones for Israel. 200,000,000 come out of the east. Disturbing. Royal tents at Mt Carmel overlooking Megiddo.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv, I think the 200 million will be ANGELS.  It may well be the parable of the tares.

[iamlamad]

On 4/9/2019 at 6:37 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi WilliamL,

Good question there bro. Now in context we read just further back in Daniel 11 how a king shall arise by intrigue.

`(the king of the North/ of Israel)..he shall come in peaceably and seize the kingdom by intrigue....& after a league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people, he shall enter peaceably even into the richest places of the province.....`(Dan. 11: 21 - 24) 

This king of the North, (of Syria. Iraq & Jordan - Assyria) makes the Peace Treaty with Israel and his small group, (the 3 nations of Dan. 7: 8). from that small power base he then enlarges his power and authority by deceiving the other Islamic nations, (the richest places of the province). Then he becomes the 4th power`s leader, the Islamic Messiah. having then brought that formable awesome power together he can then enter Egypt and other places.

This chapter, (Dan. 11) shows the rise of the Islamic leader from a small power base to a great power that eventually deceives the other super powers and finally controls them Economically, and Politically through deception.

Marilyn.

Sorry, Marilyn, but those verses are about Antiochus Epiphanes. In other words, HISTORY.

[iamlamad]

On 4/11/2019 at 1:16 PM, Diaste said:

None. This beast rises through supernatural power. It will have nothing to do with a global political anything. 

He will rise to power through the force of will of the gods by otherworldly means and shocking display of power.

Good post!

[iamlamad]

On 4/11/2019 at 1:40 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi William L,

I don't think there is any doubt of an Iranian invasion of the Middle East. Look at the prophecy in Daniel 8:

 In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward:

³ Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the ^[a]canal. Now the two horns were^[b]long, but one was ^[c]longer than the other, with the ^[d]longer one coming up last. ⁴ I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his ^[e]power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.....Dan 8:3-4

The ram is then attacked by a shaggy goat who defeats the ram:

⁵ While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the ^[a]goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. ⁶ He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the ^[b]canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. ⁷ I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his ^[c]power.....Dan 8:5-7

The Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end:

He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”  Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright.  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”  (Dan. 8: 17-19 

 

 The Angel Gabriel then identifies the ram and the shaggy goat.

The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.  The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece (Dan. 8: 20-21 NASB)

The angel gave Daniel names of the ancient peoples who occupied that piece of land that currently is Iran.  Those names Daniel was familiar with.  There is no doubt that if it “headbutts” west, north and south, Iran will fulfill Daniel 8.

Who is the shaggy goat?  The Hebrew word translated “Greece” is actually Yavan.  Yavan were an ancient people that occupied eastern Greece and western Turkey.  The principle city within the region is Istanbul.  The Angel is not referring to Greece but rather to the Yavan people who occupy modern Turkey!  Turkey is the goat.

 

 Why does scripture highlight this particular war?  Because it launches the career of the Antichrist.

Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.  It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.  It even magnified itself  to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.  (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB)

The little horn is the Antichrist.  His coming is ushered in by this war we are about to witness.  Every Christian needs to aware of this prophecy.   Iran’s invasion will mark the beginning of the end.

WRONG! It is the end of THEIR time....that is the end of the ancient GREEK empire and it is talking about Antichus. It has nothing to do with our future. Read it in the Amplified bible.

[iamlamad]

On 4/24/2019 at 6:23 PM, Uriah said:

Hi missmuffet

                    I understand your position on the 7 yr. tribulation. but the 7 yr. teaching is unsupported by the bible. People get that by believing a misreading of Dan. 7. And if you look at the trumpets and vials in Revelation, you'll see that they repeat the same judgments, while the seals are an overview of the same period. We would need to have the mountains and islands be moved out of their places twice, darkness/sun referred to twice, Euphrates referred to twice, and so on. 

Jesus taught using as illustrations the stories of Noah and lot. In both cases NOBODY was removed until the day that God's judgment came down out of the sky. That will be at the end. And then Jesus said "...it will be just like this when the Son of Man is revealed".

You are Mistaken.  The seals are not the trumpets and the trumpets are not the vials. There is TIMING you are ignoring, not to mention the very text itself.  Indeed, there are two bad earthquakes, but the last much worse than the first. How could anyone even imagine they are the same? Read the text.

Jesus ONLY point in bringing up Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction. Look for the preposition, "FOR." We don't know if all on the earth died the same day it began to rain, but for those that did, they woke up that morning thinking that day would be just like the previous days: but they were so wrong. With Lot, it was even more sudden: the same day. 

This is NO WAY contradicts a 7 year week of judgment.

Edited April 25, 2019 by iamlamad