Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[WilliamL]

Daniel 11:40 “In a time of an end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many  shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Cushites shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time."

-- the latter phrase in bold referring to the Great Tribulation.

Whether you are pre-, mid-, or post-trib, all of the events leading up to verse 12:1 may well occur while you are still here.

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

(For one example, who would invade Egypt now, while el-Sisi is in power? Would he need to be overthrown first, in order to cause the King of the North to subdue a different government in Egypt?)

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by WilliamL

[Montana Marv]

Edom, Moab and Ammon will be safe zones for Israel. 200,000,000 come out of the east. Disturbing. Royal tents at Mt Carmel overlooking Megiddo.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Zemke]

It would seem events need to take place that would create a north-south conflict of a good magnitude. Europe at this time doesn't seem emboldened enough for such a thing. That could change quickly, just as an example and no dogmatic meaning intended, if Iran would do something foolish or even a mistake, accident, like a nuclear event while posturing war against Israel and the U.S. came crashing down big time terminating the Iranian threat. A recapitulation of sorts of the Ram and the Goat. This could set the stage for a reconfiguration of world powers and a rushing into globalism full press. All the alignment we see in Daniel and Revelation could happen very quickly in literally biblical proportions. Western power could majorly shift to Europe and the whole stage would be set for Nimrod the ultimate. Or better known as the son of perdition.

This quick horrid war would set all nations on a course of "enough is enough". People will gladly do whatever for peace and someone who seems to love the poor, has favour with many peoples, brilliant at negotiating, reaches across the aisle, embraces religion, especially Judaism and Christianity while subduing and appeasing Islam. Has endless spending ability and gains control of the major armaments and regions of power ushering in a sense of peace like no other and the whole list of characteristics about the man of lawlessness. But deception will be at it's highest level of levels and the spiritual battles will be like no other.  

And America will have its own north-south conflict as we can see it forming now. We are in and moving toward interesting times. 

It's speculation of course and as long as it has a biblical sense to it I find it no harm and interesting but ultimately no matter what may happen, faithfulness is the premium commodity. Not silver or gold or canned goods. The love of Jesus, He is faithful and whoever calls on His name shall be saved.

  

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:40 “In a time of an end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many  shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Cushites shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time."

-- the latter phrase in bold referring to the Great Tribulation.

Whether you are pre-, mid-, or post-trib, all of the events leading up to verse 12:1 may well occur while you are still here.

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

(For one example, who would invade Egypt now, while el-Sisi is in power? Would he need to be overthrown first, in order to cause the King of the North to subdue a different government in Egypt?)

 

 

Hi WilliamL,

Good question there bro. Now in context we read just further back in Daniel 11 how a king shall arise by intrigue.

`(the king of the North/ of Israel)..he shall come in peaceably and seize the kingdom by intrigue....& after a league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people, he shall enter peaceably even into the richest places of the province.....`(Dan. 11: 21 - 24) 

This king of the North, (of Syria. Iraq & Jordan - Assyria) makes the Peace Treaty with Israel and his small group, (the 3 nations of Dan. 7: 8). from that small power base he then enlarges his power and authority by deceiving the other Islamic nations, (the richest places of the province). Then he becomes the 4th power`s leader, the Islamic Messiah. having then brought that formable awesome power together he can then enter Egypt and other places.

This chapter, (Dan. 11) shows the rise of the Islamic leader from a small power base to a great power that eventually deceives the other super powers and finally controls them Economically, and Politically through deception.

Marilyn.

[Uriah]

Hello,

Anyone have  thoughts on Daniel's prophecy relating to Greece/ Antiochus/Macabees?

[Zemke]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello,

Anyone have  thoughts on Daniel's prophecy relating to Greece/ Antiochus/Macabees?

My post above is somewhat of a recapitulation of the ram and goat to set up eventually a north-south conflict as what became of the aftermath of Alexander with Antiochus. Out of the rubble of an east-west conflict could arise a clearer picture of globalism and the alinement of nations for the eventual rise of the antichrist. All this could happen rather quickly because we can see the tensions all around of the developing nations in the south frustrated and moving into the developed nations in the north in both hemispheres. One nasty quick onslaught of serious hardware could tip the scales for global peace. Setting the stage more clearly than how we guess at things now but won't so much then. However, deception will be even heavier so no matter how clear things may be for us don't expect many to pay attention. The aspect of peace will override any sense of paying attention to us nuts with our negative prophecy stuff. Jeremiah is a good example of that. People will listen to the false prophets proclaiming peace.

It could also subdue Islam in the radical sense and pave the way for a peace deal that would seem to have everyone's agreement. It took a horrid event to open up the middle east for the Jews to return and it just may take another horrid event for the Muslims to back down. Trump's peace plan will most likely lead to war just like all the other peace plans have.

Once again it's just an educated guess and speculation but I happen to still hold to the reconfiguration of the Roman empire idea, the ten toes of the statue from the dream.

The mixture of multiculturalism will never adhere eventually becoming what Jesus predicted in Matth, 24. ethnos against ethnos translated nation against nation. Iron and clay can't adhere to one another. First internal conflicts then kingdom against kingdom. We can see the seeds of these things everywhere. 

  

[Diaste]

On 4/9/2019 at 1:08 PM, WilliamL said:

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

None. This beast rises through supernatural power. It will have nothing to do with a global political anything. 

He will rise to power through the force of will of the gods by otherworldly means and shocking display of power.

[JoeCanada]

On 4/9/2019 at 12:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:40 “In a time of an end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many  shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Cushites shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time."

-- the latter phrase in bold referring to the Great Tribulation.

Whether you are pre-, mid-, or post-trib, all of the events leading up to verse 12:1 may well occur while you are still here.

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

(For one example, who would invade Egypt now, while el-Sisi is in power? Would he need to be overthrown first, in order to cause the King of the North to subdue a different government in Egypt?)

 

 

Hi William L,

I don't think there is any doubt of an Iranian invasion of the Middle East. Look at the prophecy in Daniel 8:

 In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward:

³ Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the ^[a]canal. Now the two horns were^[b]long, but one was ^[c]longer than the other, with the ^[d]longer one coming up last. ⁴ I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his ^[e]power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.....Dan 8:3-4

The ram is then attacked by a shaggy goat who defeats the ram:

⁵ While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the ^[a]goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. ⁶ He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the ^[b]canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. ⁷ I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his ^[c]power.....Dan 8:5-7

The Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end:

He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”  Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright.  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”  (Dan. 8: 17-19 

 

 The Angel Gabriel then identifies the ram and the shaggy goat.

The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.  The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece (Dan. 8: 20-21 NASB)

The angel gave Daniel names of the ancient peoples who occupied that piece of land that currently is Iran.  Those names Daniel was familiar with.  There is no doubt that if it “headbutts” west, north and south, Iran will fulfill Daniel 8.

Who is the shaggy goat?  The Hebrew word translated “Greece” is actually Yavan.  Yavan were an ancient people that occupied eastern Greece and western Turkey.  The principle city within the region is Istanbul.  The Angel is not referring to Greece but rather to the Yavan people who occupy modern Turkey!  Turkey is the goat.

 

 Why does scripture highlight this particular war?  Because it launches the career of the Antichrist.

Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.  It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.  It even magnified itself  to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.  (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB)

The little horn is the Antichrist.  His coming is ushered in by this war we are about to witness.  Every Christian needs to aware of this prophecy.   Iran’s invasion will mark the beginning of the end.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi William L,

I don't think there is any doubt of an Iranian invasion of the Middle East. Look at the prophecy in Daniel 8:

 In the vision a ram head butts its way westward, northward and southward:

³ Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the ^[a]canal. Now the two horns were^[b]long, but one was ^[c]longer than the other, with the ^[d]longer one coming up last. ⁴ I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his ^[e]power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.....Dan 8:3-4

The ram is then attacked by a shaggy goat who defeats the ram:

⁵ While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the ^[a]goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. ⁶ He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the ^[b]canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. ⁷ I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his ^[c]power.....Dan 8:5-7

The Angel Gabriel informs Daniel that this vision applies to the time of the end:

He said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”  Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright.  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.”  (Dan. 8: 17-19 

 

 The Angel Gabriel then identifies the ram and the shaggy goat.

The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.  The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece (Dan. 8: 20-21 NASB)

The angel gave Daniel names of the ancient peoples who occupied that piece of land that currently is Iran.  Those names Daniel was familiar with.  There is no doubt that if it “headbutts” west, north and south, Iran will fulfill Daniel 8.

Who is the shaggy goat?  The Hebrew word translated “Greece” is actually Yavan.  Yavan were an ancient people that occupied eastern Greece and western Turkey.  The principle city within the region is Istanbul.  The Angel is not referring to Greece but rather to the Yavan people who occupy modern Turkey!  Turkey is the goat.

 

 Why does scripture highlight this particular war?  Because it launches the career of the Antichrist.

Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.  It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.  It even magnified itself  to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.  (Dan. 8: 9 – 11 NASB)

The little horn is the Antichrist.  His coming is ushered in by this war we are about to witness.  Every Christian needs to aware of this prophecy.   Iran’s invasion will mark the beginning of the end.

Daniel 8 also says the vision is specific to the latter times and the A of D, etc. The ram and goat prophecy was fulfilled during Alexander's time. The vision concerns the latter time of kingdoms of the ram and the goat, specifically the little horn, A of D, etc.

Maybe Iran invades something, but my bets are on the beast rising from out of Mesopotamia, not Turkey, or Greece, or Europe. 

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Zemke said:

My post above is somewhat of a recapitulation of the ram and goat to set up eventually a north-south conflict as what became of the aftermath of Alexander with Antiochus.

  

Hello Zwmkw

                       Not sure what this means. Are you saying these things were already fulfilled and you are using them for future events too?