The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Perhaps, but this isn't dealing with the troublesome results of my previous reply. The reasons why are not significant at this point. Of great import is the process by which these conclusions are derived.

It seems out of character for the concept of love your neighbor to place a great many believers in a difficult situation, from which another group of believers escape by reason when that reason only applies to them and not the first group.

But still your idea here does not work even if it's valid in concept. What is missed is the vast throng around the throne that came from out of great tribulation. If the 'tribulation period' is the wrath of God then everyone of these had to endure the wrath of God, something scripture says will not happen, and a foundational premise of the PreTrib doctrine. If that premise works to prove there must be a Pretrib rapture because 'we are not appointed to wrath', then why does it not work for this group which came out of GT(wrath)?

nothing here refutes the points I made....

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This, "They were not careful with the Scriptures and added to what was written even though God warned them not to!" is not the correct conclusion based on the fact,

"the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,"

This only refers here to the prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not all of scripture. It's likely that any who add or take away from scripture in any way will have to answer for that, and it will be unpleasant for sure, but in the passage you posted additions and subtractions are specific to the prophecies in Revelation.

Revelation covers the church age into the eternal state... I would say that covers all from Pentecost on....

Edited July 6, 2018 by enoob57

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Eph 5:25-33 - Husbands, love your wife, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her..... v. 31,32 - for this reason a man will leave his father and mother, and be united with his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.  This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the Church.

This Wife is the Bride of Christ, being the Church.  1 Cor 12:14 - Now the body is not made up of one part but many.  If the foot should say, I am not the hand, I do not belong to the body.  And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I do not belong to the body,...  So we have hands, feet, ears, eyes, smell, hearing all part of the Body.  Rev 21 states brick and mortar, jewels and gems, pillars, walls, and road mix. 

I see a difference,  You are the one who is defining terms to fit your agenda.  What say you.

Instead of being dismissive of this verse which clearly defines the bride of Christ,

• Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.  Revelation 21:9-10

why not use it to enhance your understanding of the bride of Christ?  If what you pursue is the truth, then you're going to have to let go of the teachings of men when they come in conflict with the clear statements of the Bible.  Looking at the description of the holy city Jerusalem we see the following:

• It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.  There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.  And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  Revelation 21:12-14

According to the truth revealed in Revelation 21 about the bride of Christ, we know for sure that the bride is not exclusively a new covenant reference.  Are you going to reject Revelation 21's definition of the bride, or are you going to embrace it instead of the teachings of men?  What say you?

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi again Last Daze,

Here is something to think about. If you had never seen a vehicle with a wheel, and I said let`s discuss this `wheel,` then everyone would give their opinion as to what the `wheel` was. However if you knew the PURPOSE of the wheel, then you would have understanding from the whole picture.

So it is with discussing `the catching away/rapture.` Just to discuss the part separate from its PURPOSE IS REALLY `ANYONE`S OPINION. Thus I believe we need to get to the heart of the matter and discuss `WHY` the Lord is `catching away` His Body. And that is NOT to escape the wrath, though that will happen, the reason is connected to the PURPOSE OF THE BODY.

Do you want to discuss that or start a new thread of that?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I know we've gone through this before but if you're willing to start a thread on it, I'll join in.  Discussions with you are always civil and appreciated.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

According to the truth revealed in Revelation 21 about the bride of Christ, we know for sure that the bride is not exclusively a new covenant reference.  Are you going to reject Revelation 21's definition of the bride, or are you going to embrace it instead of the teachings of men?  What say you?

The New Jerusalem is prepared as (like, similar, adorned, beautiful) a bride. (Rev 21:2)

Once the great prostitute is destroyed (Rev 19:1-6). Then the wedding supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:7-10)  All these before the 2nd Coming and the Mill.  Before the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem have even been formed.  So how can the wedding supper of the Lamb occur before the New Jerusalem is even made by God, One must have a Bride, a Bridegroom, then a wedding supper.  You have a timing problem of well over 1,000 years.  What say you.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

nothing here refutes the points I made....

Wasn't the goal. We know believers are in the tribulation. If tribulation is God's wrath that's not possible. "We are not appointed to wrath." That's for ALL believers. It's not just for Pretrib believers. 

So again, "Why does a subset of the believers in Jesus get to escape wrath when another subset does not?"

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Butero said:

What God does during the tribulation period is pour out wrath.  That is what the angels are doing with the various types of judgement.  That is why this is no different than Lot being taken out of Sodom and Noah being rescued from the flood.  

It is different in the PreTrib doctrine. While a certain group of believers in Jesus stake their hopes on "We are not appointed to wrath" and determine a rapture must then occur before tribulation begins, there is another group of believers in Jesus that must endure the pouring out of wrath during tribulation. This is not possible if "We are not appointed to wrath" is truth. No believer will see God's wrath. 

To reconcile this we all must conclude that tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. Scripture is clear. Wrath begins at the 6th seal. Not before. What comes before is never referred to as the wrath of God. Only what comes after the 6th seal is God's wrath.

The question is, "Why does Pretrib get to escape under the umbrella of "We are not appointed to wrath" when a large group of believers in Jesus do not?"

You do realize, according to PreTrib doctrine, every person that comes to the saving grace of the Father by the blood of Jesus during the tribulation must immediately endure God's wrath? Do you really believe the one who saves immediately casts the saved into the cauldron of the Savior's fierce anger? Ludicrous. And, exactly what pretrib seeks to escape.

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The New Jerusalem is prepared as (like, similar, adorned, beautiful) a bride. (Rev 21:2)

Once the great prostitute is destroyed (Rev 19:1-6). Then the wedding supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:7-10)  All these before the 2nd Coming and the Mill.  Before the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem have even been formed.  So how can the wedding supper of the Lamb occur before the New Jerusalem is even made by God, One must have a Bride, a Bridegroom, then a wedding supper.  You have a timing problem of well over 1,000 years.  What say you.

Since we apparently give deference to different things, I say to be faithful, keep the commandments of God, hold to the testimony of Jesus, and endure to the end.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Wasn't the goal. We know believers are in the tribulation. If tribulation is God's wrath that's not possible. "We are not appointed to wrath." That's for ALL believers. It's not just for Pretrib believers. 

So again, "Why does a subset of the believers in Jesus get to escape wrath when another subset does not?"

I have already addressed that with adding to God's Word....

[Marilyn C]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:24 AM, Brother Duke said:

There is a bride but it is not the gentiles.  Israel is still betrothed to God.  I still submit that the 144,000 remnant of Israel from all the tribes not just Judah are the bride.  God will reunite all of Israel back together and they will once again be his people and his betrothed.  Looks and see who comes back with Christ.  It is not the gentiles.  The 144,000 are with Christ forever after he returns.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.  11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.  19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revekation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Hi Brother Duke,

So good to read of clear truth. The bride is & always has been, Israel, and we as the BODY of Christ. Two different groups for two different purposes, yet all in harmony under the Lord`s rule.

BTW I also need to say, as someone has brought up the New Jerusalem, that the city is described `AS` a bride, meaning it is like a bride in all its glory. That is a description. and God uses that term for Israel and later for the city.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I know we've gone through this before but if you're willing to start a thread on it, I'll join in.  Discussions with you are always civil and appreciated.

Hi Last Daze,

Thanks, I forgot we had that discussion before. Now you know I would love to start a thread on that topic and after this trip around Australia I think I will. That will be in October sometime when we return. And you too, I always appreciate discussing with, as you think and work through what someone is saying and treat people respectfully also.

regards, Marilyn.