The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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The timing of the end of the tribulation of the Saints Or the start of the end times Wrath of God is irrelevant.. 

God can carry out wrath on this earth and still protect His children as they bare witness to that wrath being carried out..

Psalms 91: KJV

4"He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

[Montana Marv]

How is Post Trib like a theif in the night.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

How is Post Trib like a theif in the night.

Because Jesus said so.

• And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:14-16

Lean on the teachings of Jesus, not your own understanding.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Because Jesus said so.

• And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:14-16

Lean on the teachings of Jesus, not your own understanding.

When at the end of the play, there cannot be a theif like Rapture, for it is then known. Can anyone tell me when Pre Trib will begin. This is the only Unknown time ahead of us. Once it begins the clock is ticking.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

Yes the day of the Lord comes like a theif in the night. But which day of the Lord are you referring to. Not all are the same. The time of the Bridegrooms arrival is totally unknown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

When at the end of the play, there cannot be a theif like Rapture, for it is then known. Can anyone tell me when Pre Trib will begin. This is the only Unknown time ahead of us. Once it begins the clock is ticking.

It is only unknown to those in darkness.

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief.  1 Thessalonians 5:4

Seems that you lean waaaay too heavily on the teachings of men.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes the day of the Lord comes like a theif in the night. But which day of the Lord are you referring to. Not all are the same. The time of the Bridegrooms arrival is totally unknown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

"Totally unknown?"  More fabrications.  Not knowing the day or hour does not make it "totally unknown."  Stick with what the Bible actually says if you want clarity in the matter.  The teachings of men only serve to muddy the water.

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

"Totally unknown?"  More fabrications.  Not knowing the day or hour does not make it "totally unknown."  Stick with what the Bible actually says if you want clarity in the matter.  The teachings of men only serve to muddy the water.

Yes God the Father, unless a different title is warranted.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

"Totally unknown?"  More fabrications.  Not knowing the day or hour does not make it "totally unknown."  Stick with what the Bible actually says if you want clarity in the matter.  The teachings of men only serve to muddy the water.

Let's go a little deeper, to see if I can understand you:

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  v42 - Keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.    At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like.  Matt 13:24, 13:33, 44, 45, 47. 20:1. 22:1. 25:1   Matt 25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.  One must be able to distinguish between the kingdom of heaven, and Christs Kingdom on earth during His 1000 year reign.  Two separate time periods.  No one knowing includes both you and me.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Butero said:

I am not renouncing anything, as I don't think you have made a good case.  I was just reading through Revelation yesterday, and the word wrath is used to describe the angels pouring out God's wrath.  Your own post here would argue for a pre-tribulation rapture based on that alone.  

I'm pointing out the trouble with Pretrib, the same things I examined over the years which led me to the conclusion the doctrine is wanting in many ways. I understand the order as spoken by Jesus concerning the end of the age.

13 hours ago, Butero said:

There won't be a billion people going in the rapture.  The number will be very small.  This is where I disagree with the Hal Lindsey types.  I do not believe everyone will go in the rapture because they are a professing Christian.  The lukewarm will be left behind.  That is because they weren't paying attention, and were careless in how they live, even though they were warned.  That scripture in 1 Thessalonians does not guarantee that every professing Christian will escape wrath.  It is speaking to those who are genuinely following Christ.  Let's examine that scripture a little closer.  1 Thessalonians 5:9...

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Everyone likes to insert themselves into these scriptures, as though they definitely apply to them.  Sinners read the Bible, so when it says "God hath not appointed us to wrath," you have to understand who "us" really is.  This does not include every lukewarm church member, which makes up a huge part of the Christian church world.  Only a relatively small number will go in the rapture.  You might well call them privileged, but they wouldn't be the first privileged people.  How many people were taken up to heaven not knowing death?  Two privileged people I know of named Enoch and Elijah.  It will be a relatively small number, not likely over a billion, and this teaching isn't intended to be widely trumpeted.  It is a mystery.  It is a hidden truth.  Keeping your life in order does not mean simply paying your bills.  

That's not an examination. It's more like doctrinal policy as it ignores the real issues. The preceding paragraphs assume the 70th week and God's wrath are equivalent. In that case your arguments have an internal consistency, even as the conclusions are incorrect. If you are going to continue in the belief the 70th week and the wrath of God are one and the same you will never reach accurate conclusions about the end of the age, and there might be little anyone can say to change your mind.

Further, it's problematic for the doctrine to hold to any kind of equality in the brothers and sisters of the faith. Paul was speaking to the 'brothers and sisters', as I pointed out earlier, and obviously not to EVERYONE. It's manifest we would only be speaking about those following Jesus in truth as Paul wasn't addressing segregation in the body, nor those who believe not. In that case your arguments fail as Paul would have been only speaking to the faithful when he said we are not appointed to wrath.

Now, if you can find an example in scripture that has a book, chapter and verse reference that says 'lukewarm Christians' are destined to the wrath of God then I'll examine the reference. 

13 hours ago, Butero said:

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.  Luke 12:45,46

Most professing Christians will go through the tribulation period, but not all.  Luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.  

Some will escape all of those things.  They are indeed privileged.  Let's go back to your comments about wrath.  Have you actually looked at Revelation and how many times the word wrath is used concerning the tribulation period?  

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:  For the great day of his WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?  Rev 6:16,17

And the nations were angry, and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  Rev 11:18

The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.  Rev 14:10

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the WRATH of God.  Rev 15:1

That is not even a complete list of all the times the word wrath is used to describe what takes place during the great tribulation period,

Were you making a point? I don't see one. Is this in reference to the semantic game of 'pouring out wrath through tribulation'?

It does not matter how many times 'wrath' appears if one divorces the word from context. But I guess it's better than dealing with the problems of the doctrine.

One huge problem is the martyrs at the 5th seal if one demands all the 70th week equates to wrath. God's wrath is now the action resulting in the death of the martyrs if the entire last week is God's wrath. Now one could never say these martyrs were lukewarm, not watching, life a mess, not walking after Jesus, etc, etc.

These martyrs are lauded for their great strength in the Spirit of God and complete faithfulness in Jesus and our Father, to wit:

"⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

But it's even more than this;

"they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Not only have these staunch, powerful, faithful martyrs died for the Lord and their testimony of the Lord, it's not over, more are going to die for Jesus and in His name. Your way of thinking has these people being killed during God's wrath. Not refined and tried and tested like one would expect of the less than faithful believer, killed by the wrath of God through tribulation, as you put it. 

These martyrs are obviously, abundantly, faithful and found under the altar in the throne room. Is it your contention that the Pretrib adherents are as faithful and true? And what about the 100,000 faithful that die in Jesus name every year, in this age? Where is their Pretrib rapture? Are they lukewarm because they had to die for Jesus? Are they not watching for the Lord and so deserve death? Is their house in disorder so they had to be killed for their faith? What other conclusion can be drawn but that of an elite group that will not experience tribulation while their faithful brothers and sisters are dying all around? And where is that in scripture?

But concerning wrath, you know it only begins at the 6th seal, yes? Wrath comes only after the martyrs are all slain for Jesus. No where does scripture say wrath begins before the 6th seal, and at the 7th trumpet coincidentally. So what book, chapter, and verse do you know that tells us wrath begins at the first seal? Or any time other than at the 6th seal, deep into the end of the age, and after the deaths of countless faithful followers of Jesus?