Is there a better way to 'do Church'?

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:37 AM, arachnogeek said:

Is there anything wrong with our current model of doing Church? Could there be improvements made? 

Are the following elements biblical? 

 

I suppose it really comes down to what we mean by "biblical."  People often use the word "biblical" to mean "correct."   Others use that term to mean, "doctrinal"  Still others use that term to mean, "mandated by God in the Bible."   Does something have to be mandated or commanded by God to be allowed in a church setting?

1. Tithing - is not commanded in the NT.   But tithing in a NT church does not violate any biblical doctrine.  And 10% is a good benchmark.   The NT standard of giving is one of giving according to how you feel led to do so.   That does not alleviate the importance of teaching on the subject of giving and stewardship.   The truth is that if every did tithe (90% do not give at all), phenomenal ministry opportunities could easily be funded around the world.  Missionaries could be better freed up to do what they are called to do and have the ministry assets they need in without have to stop and raise money.  When we give, our arms are longer.   Most of us cannot go overseas and are not called to go overseas.   But we can have a global impact through giving even when we are not there.

 

2. Pastor salaries - I think you would be hard pressed to show how such a thing is "wrong."  Nothing in the Bible teaches that a pastor cannot be paid a living wage.   You may disagree with it, but you cannot offer up anything  in the Bible that would clearly mark off something like this as "wrong."   Pastors getting paid at least in some fashion IS biblical.   This complaint is really more about selfish people who want the pastor to minister to them, but have no desire to minister to the pastor or to his needs.  For them, ministry is a one-way street.

 

3. Million-dollar church buildings -  Those buildings are not palaces.   Those buildings offer ministry opportunities that many small churches cannot supply.  Those buildings are often used as training facilities to train people who are going on short-term missions trips.  They are used to provide warming centers for homeless people, they have benevolence ministries that provide food, clothing and event temporary shelters. The host ministry events for local groups such as shelters for battered and abused women, or Crisis Pregnancy ministries and so on.   Those large buildings offer themselves to house discipleship ministries and can participate in events that bring lost people into a church setting who would not otherwise never set foot in a church and they will receive ministry that they would have never otherwise received.

 

4. Seminary-trained pastors - This is something that is quite valuable.  Seminaries provide important training to pastors in many practical areas that most people never think about when they think about "ministry."  Many pastors have ended up in prison or their churches have been embroiled in expensive legal battles because of ignorant pastors who stepped into an area of "ministry" without knowing the legal ramifications of their actions.    Stories abound about pastors who did not know the legal boundaries of ministry or who have stepped into moral issues that end up costing them the ministry and now they have been disqualified from serving because of a moral failing or because of a perceived moral failing.  

Seminary is to ministry was medical school is to being a doctor or a nurse.   Ignorance and a lack of education in ministry is not a virtue.   Preaching and teaching is about 1% of what a pastor does.   Depending on the size of a church, there are tons of administrative tasks and issues required to run a church and again, there are all kinds of legal matters that come along with those things.   

Not only that, but the professors in seminary are people who either are currently ministering in church, or who have had a long period of ministry service and have a ton of experience that they can pass on to younger preachers that will be of value to them in the future to help them avoid the pothole that uneducated pastors often fall into.

 

5. Church incorporation - This goes back to legal matters.  If someone is injured on church property, being incorporated means that the only the church as a single entity can be sued.  There is no personal liability when a church is incorporated.    So you would be hard pressed to find something "wrong" with any of that.  

 

Simply stating that you don't find something in the Bible is insufficient grounds to claim it is wrong or violates any tenet of biblical doctrine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:37 AM, Badjao33 said:

When put into context, I think what Paul is saying in that verse is that pastors are worthy of double "honor", just like when an ox is being used to separate grain, the ox is worthy to eat some of the grain; and laborers who work, are worthy of the wage they receive.

In his same letter to Timothy, Paul also says that widows are worthy of "honor" and slaves are to "honor" their masters. If honor means pay, then the widows in the church should also receive compensation and slaves should give compensation to their owners. Since that doesn't make sense, I can't see how this verse can be used to justify paying pastors a salary. If individuals out of the goodness of their heart want to give their pastor a financial gift, that is one thing, but asking the church as a whole to pay the pastor a salary is not Biblical in my opinion. 

"Honor" is used in different contexts when talking about the financial support given to widows and those in ministry vs. how it is used in reference to slaves.   Those are separate things.  Widows were receiving financial support and Paul makes a case for those ministering to receive it as well.  

You cannot find one thing about salaried pastors that is "wrong" in the NT. 

[john1]

12 hours ago, LukeRIC said:

Did Christ only die for one? Are there not 7000 God can preserve that do no bow to Baal?

1 John chapter 2 verse 2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

I think the church of today has some people who please God, but how do you see it if I go to a church the preaches against gay people and don't help them wont people who see me come out of that church think I'm a hypocrite like that.

 

Luke chapter 12 verse 1

 

Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be[a] on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.     I've seen gay people who serve God better than some church people.     Malachi chapter 3 verse 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not."   Matthew chapter 21 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Luke chapter 3 7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” 10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. 11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.” 12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” 13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. 14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, john1 said:

I've seen gay people who serve God better than some church people

Unrepentant homosexuality is the opposite of serving God. It is a serious rebellion. The Bible teaches it so. I know someone fighting this and choosing to bow to God instead of this sinful lust against nature - yes, that's what it is (Rom 1).

Your comment is a little like me saying, "I know murderers who serve God better than some church people". It's a little bit ridiculous and self-evidently contradictory. As such, I'm just not going to entertain this further.

I hope you gain some perspective. God created the church and the gathering. You're against it for no reason, except saying repeatedly, "look there is a sin over there in that corner". With the judgement you judge it will be measured back to you.

It seems you are more forgiving towards the world than towards God's people. Comfortably putting homosexuality above someone who isn't giving 'enough'. Dedicating yourself to serving anyone except Christians. Accepting your own efforts, but finding everyone else who tries (with more intent than you show in practice) inadequate. More comfortable in your own setup than God's. These should be alarm bells screaming in your ear. But they aren't.

I can see you will not hear me. You cannot serve Christ and hate Christians. I urge you to turn towards the Christ and care truly.

[ayin jade]

9 hours ago, john1 said:

I've seen gay people who serve God better than some church people. 

 

Can an openly unrepentent gay person serve God? 

Strange fire.

[Guest shiloh357]

12 hours ago, john1 said:

 

I've seen gay people who serve God better than some church people.

 

No, you have not. 

[john1]

15 hours ago, LukeRIC said:

this sinful lust against nature

Then why do you sin everyone except Christ sins and continues to.

 

1 Timothy chapter 1 verse 7,8

 

They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

 

Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23

 

So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

 

Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.       Galatians chapter 5 verse 6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

[john1]

14 hours ago, ayin jade said:

On 7/3/2018 at 3:11 PM, john1 said:

 

Can an openly unrepentent gay person serve God? 

You sin, let me show you righteousness.

 

Matthew chapter 21

³² For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Luke chapter 3

⁷ John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? ⁸ Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. ⁹ The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

¹⁰ “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

¹¹ John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

¹² Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

¹³ “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

¹⁴ Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

[john1]

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you have not. 

You can accuse me of lying if you want, but I've seen a lot of gay people who help people, when church people don't, how do you justify your sin.

 

1 Timothy chapter 1 verse 7,8

 

They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

 

Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23

 

So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

 

Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. Galatians chapter 5 verse 6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, john1 said:

You can accuse me of lying if you want, but I've seen a lot of gay people who help people, when church people don't, how do you justify your sin.

 

Helping people and serving God are two different things.   A gay person cannot serve God since they are in rebellion against God.