Not Destined for Wrath

[Last Daze]

We have all heard this verse before and probably quoted it ourselves.  However, there doesn't seem to be a very good biblical understanding of what God's wrath actually is or how it applies to the last days.

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.  For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.  But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.  For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.  1 Thessalonians 5:4-10

That verse is in the context of believers being exhorted to stay awake, alert, and sober as the day of the Lord approaches.  Verse 9 makes a very clear dichotomy between wrath and salvation.  Our destiny, our blessed hope as believers, is salvation through Jesus Christ, not God’s eternal wrath.

Wrath is anger or indignation.  The contrast in the above passage is between those who walk in the light and those who walk in darkness.  Paul is exhorting the Thessalonians to walk in the reality of who they are.  Believers who do not walk in the truth are subject to corrective discipline as Keras has succinctly pointed out in this post.  It is those who disregard God’s discipline and continue in disobedience who are the objects of His wrath.

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.  Ephesians 5:6
• Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.  For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience.  Colossians 3:5-6

Tribulation is not the same as God’s wrath, although God’s wrath certainly is troubling.  God’s judgment is not His wrath either.  How could He bring corrective discipline without first making a judgment?  And we know that judgment begins with the household of God so how can that be wrath?  The coming wrath of God is clearly for the sons of disobedience as the two verses above state.  But what exactly is identified as the wrath of God that’s meant for the sons of disobedience in the last days?

• After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.  Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:5-7

The wrath of God is not some future seven year period of troubling times.  The wrath of God is not the opening of the seals.  The wrath of God is not even the trumpets that start the plagues.  The trumpets are God's corrective discipline.  They are a judgment against those who worship the false prophet as God in order to convince them of their error and lead them to repentance.  The wrath of God is clearly identified as being the seven bowls. They are for those who refuse to yield to His corrective discipline and persist in worshiping the false prophet.

If you want to escape the wrath of God, be obedient to Him and persevere to the end.  There is no other escape.

[Marilyn C]

49 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

 

• .  But what exactly is identified as the wrath of God that’s meant for the sons of disobedience in the last days?

Hi again Last Daze,

Here are my thoughts -

THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffer­ing. Zephehiah (1:14-18) provides one of the most concise descrip­tive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30:7), Daniel (12:1) and Joel (2:2). Jesus Himself warned “For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.” Matt. 24:21.

John succinctly epitomises it as “the Day of the wrath of God”. Rev. 6:15-17.

Greek ‘Orge’ expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.

` For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity....` (Isa. 26:21).

regards, Marilyn.

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

We have all heard this verse before and probably quoted it ourselves.  However, there doesn't seem to be a very good biblical understanding of what God's wrath actually is or how it applies to the last days.

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.  For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.  But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.  For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.  1 Thessalonians 5:4-10

That verse is in the context of believers being exhorted to stay awake, alert, and sober as the day of the Lord approaches.  Verse 9 makes a very clear dichotomy between wrath and salvation.  Our destiny, our blessed hope as believers, is salvation through Jesus Christ, not God’s eternal wrath.

Wrath is anger or indignation.  The contrast in the above passage is between those who walk in the light and those who walk in darkness.  Paul is exhorting the Thessalonians to walk in the reality of who they are.  Believers who do not walk in the truth are subject to corrective discipline as Keras has succinctly pointed out in this post.  It is those who disregard God’s discipline and continue in disobedience who are the objects of His wrath.

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.  Ephesians 5:6
• Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.  For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience.  Colossians 3:5-6

Tribulation is not the same as God’s wrath, although God’s wrath certainly is troubling.  God’s judgment is not His wrath either.  How could He bring corrective discipline without first making a judgment?  And we know that judgment begins with the household of God so how can that be wrath?  The coming wrath of God is clearly for the sons of disobedience as the two verses above state.  But what exactly is identified as the wrath of God that’s meant for the sons of disobedience in the last days?

• After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.  Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:5-7

The wrath of God is not some future seven year period of troubling times.  The wrath of God is not the opening of the seals.  The wrath of God is not even the trumpets that start the plagues.  The trumpets are God's corrective discipline.  They are a judgment against those who worship the false prophet as God in order to convince them of their error and lead them to repentance.  The wrath of God is clearly identified as being the seven bowls. They are for those who refuse to yield to His corrective discipline and persist in worshiping the false prophet.

If you want to escape the wrath of God, be obedient to Him and persevere to the end.  There is no other escape.

Read the book of Revelation and read it for how it is intended. Do not give the words your own meaning and do not spiritualize it. You will then find out just what the wrath of God truly is.

[Keras]

Revelation 7:14 makes it clear: .....The 'vast multitude' seen in verse 9, are those who have passed thru the great ordeal; of the Sixth Seal, that will have just happened, and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 

The Sixth Seal: the Day of the Wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb, is an earthly event, every person alive will experience it. Revelation 6:15 covers everyone.  Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will escape, or be taken out of this forthcoming great test of our faith. 

We Christians have the Promise of the Lord's protection, He will do it for us; provided we trust Him.  Happy are those who stand firm in their faith....James 5:11

[missmuffet]

2 minutes ago, Keras said:

Revelation 7:14 makes it clear: .....The 'vast multitude' seen in verse 9, are those who have passed thru the great ordeal; of the Sixth Seal, that will have just happened, and made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. 

The Sixth Seal: the Day of the Wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb, is an earthly event, every person alive will experience it. Revelation 6:15 covers everyone.  Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will escape, or be taken out of this forthcoming great test of our faith. 

We Christians have the Promise of the Lord's protection, He will do it for us; provided we trust Him.  Happy are those who stand firm in their faith....James 5:11

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The trumpets are God's corrective discipline.  They are a judgment against those who worship the false prophet as God in order to convince them of their error and lead them to repentance.

You do realized the false prophet don't even come on the scene till the 7th trumpet right? Those who accept the the false prophet faces the bowl judgments, not the trumpets.

 

Quote

The wrath of God is not some future seven year period of troubling times.  The wrath of God is not the opening of the seals.  The wrath of God is not even the trumpets that start the plagues.

Revelation 6:12-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹² I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. ¹⁴ Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

I always thought the wrath of God begins after the 6th Seal. I guess my bible must be wrong?

 

[ForHisGlory37]

4 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Corrective discipline, yes.  God's wrath, no.  As believers, we are automatically spared God's wrath, or you are saying God is a liar.  The Tribulation is God's wrath unleashed on an unbelieving world.  Throughout the Bible, God's wrath is only unleashed on unbelieving people, not believers.

After the 6th seal is opened, everything from that point on is directly God's wrath.  As such, there are only two positions one can adopt.  Believers are either removed from the Earth prior to the 6th seal being opened, or every single believer on the Earth at the moment the 6th seal is opened is divinely protected from harm at that point on until Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.  Those are the only two options.  No believer in Christ in the Church Age is going to suffer the wrath of God.  If you say they will, you are also saying that their sins are not actually forgiven.

The tribulation is called tribulation because it is tribulation. Wrath is called wrath because it is wrath and not tribulation.  There is a distinction there.  I think you nailed part of it.  You make it sound incredulous that God Almighty would have to "divinely protect every single believer from harm at the point of His wrath until Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation."  Don't you think that the God who created the world  with just His Word can protect His elect, His beloved,His chosen? 

[Omegaman 3.0]

58 minutes ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

Wrath is called wrath because it is wrath and not tribulation.  There is a distinction there.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thess 5      I tend to think, that that passage at least, is comparing two destinies, a destiny of wrath, is eternal separation from God, and all that entails, or a destiny of salvation, to be with the Lord forever, which is indeed, encouraging, just as the passage says.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This verse and Luke 21:34-36 both say the great trial to come, will come upon everyone the whole world over. Also Revelation 6:15 confirms this. 

Yet the way 'I will keep you from' and 'escape all these things', is translated, makes a Biblical anomaly: All people, yet some not?  But when the Greek words; tereo ek, that the translators have made to seem to be a removal, actually can and obviously do in this case; mean protection through troubles, not a taking away, as some would like to think. 

Rev 3:10 starts with; Because you have kept My Command to persevere.....    So, when did we persevere? The next verse says: I am coming soon, so hold fast to what you have and let no-one take your crown.  If your belief is for a rapture to heaven, then why must you hold onto your crown?   

The whole 'rapture' theory is unbiblical and just makes a mockery of Scripture, verses like Rev 3:10 are used out of context and wrongly interpreted. 

Again, in 1 Thess 5:15-17, heaven is only mentioned as the place Jesus comes from, not where we go to. He is coming to earth for His Millennium reign and those who have kept their faith thru all the trials to come, will be with Him forever. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Keras

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Corrective discipline, yes.  God's wrath, no.  As believers, we are automatically spared God's wrath, or you are saying God is a liar.  The Tribulation is God's wrath unleashed on an unbelieving world.  Throughout the Bible, God's wrath is only unleashed on unbelieving people, not believers.

After the 6th seal is opened, everything from that point on is directly God's wrath.  As such, there are only two positions one can adopt.  Believers are either removed from the Earth prior to the 6th seal being opened, or every single believer on the Earth at the moment the 6th seal is opened is divinely protected from harm at that point on until Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.  Those are the only two options.  No believer in Christ in the Church Age is going to suffer the wrath of God.  If you say they will, you are also saying that their sins are not actually forgiven.

And if we ignore God's corrective discipline, do you think He might become angry?  Instead of using the terms "believers" and "unbelievers" in connection with God's discipline / wrath, think of it in terms of "obedient" and "disobedient".  God's wrath is only unleashed on the sons of disobedience as the verses in the OP state.

11 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

After the 6th seal is opened, everything from that point on is directly God's wrath.

That's an assumption on your part.  This is what the scriptures say:

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

The day, or time, of their wrath has come.  What follows is the seventh seal which contains the seven plagues.  To paraphrase the bolded part, "the great time of the seven plagues has come".  The seven plagues (trumpets / bowls) certainly contain God's wrath, so that fits with the statement in Revelation 6, however, not every aspect of the plagues is God's wrath.  The only part of the plagues that is explicitly declared to be wrath are the bowls.  The beginning trumpets are God's corrective discipline for the purpose of convincing those who were deceived by the false prophet that they made a mistake and should repent.  Yes, idolatry is forgivable when repented of.  It's not until late into the plagues that it is first said that people don't repent.  Those who persist in disobedience are who the wrath of the bowls is for.