A Question for Protestants & Evangelicals: Is the "Protest" Really Over?

[Acadia]

Hi everyone! I shared this on another forum, but would like to get more input here.

This is a poll/thread for my fellow Protestant/Evangelicals. Some of you have no doubt seen this video or heard about it as it is a few years old, but I am still interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.

 

(Since I cannot share the video in the post, here is the link to it: "Bishop Tony Palmer and Pope Francis - The Miracle of Unity has Begun: KCM Minister's Conference 2014")

 

Ecumenism is by no means going away, so I think this issue is something we must all honestly consider. I know it can be quite controversial, hence the reason it is posted in the section of the forums.

 

First of all, if you aren't familiar with the video I am referencing, please take the time to watch it, in its entirety before responding to this thread. I would like this to be a productive discussion/debate, so it's important that we are all on the same page and know what issues are being presented.

 

***First, let me be clear: this video is not posted out of any disrespect for BishopTony Palmer, who passed away about six months after his presentation at the KCM Minister's Conference, shown in this video. My aim is simply to address the claims he makes during the talk he gave during this conference. Nor is it the within the scope of this thread to address any issues with Kenneth Copeland, Word of Faith, the Charismatic Movement or the “Prosperity Gospel.” I am well aware of these issues, but they are not the purpose of this thread. The Anglican church, is, likewise, not the subject of this thread.***

 

In his talk at the KCM Minister's Conference that took place from January 21-23 2014 (shown in the video above) Anglican Bishop, Tony Palmer presented his ecumenical stance regarding Evangelicalism, Protestantism and Catholicism. Though not a Catholic himself, Bishop Palmer, who had a longstanding friendship with Pope Francis, prior to him becoming Pope, had personally met with him and recorded a video message to share with all the Evangelical leaders present at this conference. (The video above is from his official YouTube channel, it was published on February 28, 2014 and contains the description: “This is the Full un-cut Video of my Presentation and Delivery of both mine and Pope Francis' message to the international Evangelical Leaders at the KCM Minister's Conference, 21-23 Jan, 2014 Fort Worth, Texas, USA. 'The Miracle of Unity has Begun')

 

In his talk during the conference, Bishop Palmer clearly presented his ecumenical beliefs, and he shared the video message from Pope Francis as well. The major point of both Bishop Palmer's message and that of Pope Francis is unity between Catholics and Evangelicals. This call for unity between Evangelicals and the Catholic Church is, of course, not in any way something that originated with Bishop Palmer or Pope Francis. This call for unity (ecumenism) has been ongoing for some time. (In May of 1994, for example, the historic document, titled “Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium”, was signed by many notable Catholics and Evangelicals who agreed thereby to enter into official partnership with one another, claiming that there were no longer any serious differences between Catholicism and Evangelicalism and that they were doing the will of Christ by truly uniting in Him). This message was echoed by Bishop Palmer and Pope Francis during the KCM Minister's Conference in January of 2014.

 

During his presentation at this 2014 conference, Bishop Palmer made statements, such as:

 

“And this is history that we've got a Pope who recognizes us as brothers and sisters, speaks to us as brothers and sisters and has sent a message to us...”

 

“I believe that God has brought me here, to this year's Minister's Conference, in the spirit of Elijah.” (pauses) “Let me explain. If you look carefully, the spirit of Elijah was on John the Baptist, to turn the hearts of the sons to the fathers. And to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons. To prepare the way for the Lord. And we know that prophecy always has a double fulfillment. And we know that Elijah will come before the second coming as well. And I've understood that the spirit of Elijah is the spirit of reconciliation. To return hearts to each other.”

 

“If you're born again...raise your hand if you're born again. You're a Catholic.” (audience laughs) “Take back, redeem, what belongs to you. We are Catholics!”

 

“I've come to understand that diversity is divine. It's division that's diabolic.”

 

“The glory that the Father had, He gave to Jesus. The glory was the presence of God. What is the Charismatic renewal? It's when we experience the presence of God. And He said, 'and I give them the glory', pragmatic reason, so that they may be one. It's the glory that glues us together, not the doctrines.”

 

“If you accept that Christ is living in me, and the presence of God is in me, and the presence of God is in you, that's all we need. Because God will sort out all our doctrines when we get upstairs.”

 

“Division destroys our credibility. It is fear that keeps us separated, because fear is false evidence appearing real, it's an acronym. F E A R, false evidence appearing real. Because most of your fear is based on propaganda.”

 

“Luther believed that we were saved by grace through faith....alone. Amen. But that's not it. The Catholic Church believed that we were saved by works. And that was their protest. In 1999, they wrote this together, [referring to the official agreement between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran church, signed in 1999] because in the Protestant church we got a lot of cheap salvations. People were getting born again but no fruit whatsoever. And because we didn't even look for fruits, it wasn't the issue, cause it wasn't necessary for salvation. And no it's not, but it's a good judge if you are saved. So what these two churches did, they put the two definitions together. Listen to it. I'm reading verbatim from the Catholic Vatican website. Justification means that Christ Himself is our righteousness. In which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we, Catholics and Protestants, (Lutherans), believe and confess that by grace alone in faith in Christ's saving works and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God, and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.” (audience applause) “This brought an end to the protest of Luther.” (pause) “Brothers and sisters, Luther's protest is over. Is yours?"

 

“So, the protest has been over for fifteen years. And I get a bit cheeky here, cause I challenge my protestant pastor friends, if there is no more protest, how can there be a protestant church? (pause) “Maybe now we're all Catholics again. But we are reformed. We're Catholic in the universal sense. We're not protesting the doctrine of salvation by the Catholic Church anymore. We now preach the same Gospel. We now preach you are saved by grace through faith, alone. The word 'alone' was the argument for 500 years. The word 'alone' is there, you can read it yourself. The protest is over.” (pause) “The protest is over.”

 

“We need to throw as much resources and energy into the ministry of reconciliation as we do to the ministry of evangelization. Or are we building walls without foundations?”

 

Here are some questions I think Evangelicals and Protestants must honestly ask themselves, however, before deciding whether or not Bishop Palmer is correct in regard to the assertions he made at this conference.

 

• Is it actually true that Evangelicals and Catholics can have real unity if official Catholic doctrine and tradition have not changed?

 

• Are there truly no serious differences in faith and doctrine between Catholicism and Evangelicalism? (Or Protestantism)

 

• Is the “protest” really over, as Bishop Palmer suggests?

 

• Are we actually “all Catholics again” as Bishop Palmer claims we are?

 

• Are Evangelicals and Protestants actually in agreement with official Catholic doctrine regarding the Gospel and how one is saved?

 

• Does the Catholic Church actually teach “salvation by faith unto good works”, as Bishop Palmer claims? Or are good works still held as a necessary part of salvation in official Catholic doctrine and tradition?

 

• Is it true that official Catholic doctrine no longer includes various works as a crucial part of salvation?

 

Also, here is what Pope Francis says, in part, in the video shared at this conference:

 

(Speaking of Catholics and Evangelicals, he says) “We are kind of...permit me to say, separated. Separated because, it's sin that has separated us, all our sins. The misunderstandings throughout history. It has been a long road of sins that well all shared in. Who's to blame? We all share the blame. We have all sinned. There is only one blameless, the Lord. I am nostalgic [yearning] that this separation comes to an end and gives us communion. I am nostalgic [yearning], of that embrace.”

 

“We have a lot of cultural riches, and religious riches. And we have diverse traditions. But we have to encounter one another as Brothers. We must cry together like Joesph did. These tears will unite us. Tears of love.”

 

“And let's pray to the Lord that He unites us all. Come on, we are Brothers. Let's give each other a spiritual hug and let God complete the work that He has begun. And this is a miracle; the miracle of unity has begun.”

 

And here are some more questions I think we should ask ourselves as Protestants and Evangelicals:

 

• Is Pope Francis correct? Is it “sin" that has separated us? (Catholics and Evangelicals)

 

• Was the Reformation, therefore, simply a “misunderstanding"?

 

• Were all the thousands who died rather than submit to the Catholic Church, the Papacy and it's doctrines and tradition guilty of sin and misunderstanding as well?

 

• Should Evangelicals and Protestants be willing to come back into unity with the Catholic Church? Why or why not?

 

Please share your thoughts (respectfully and constructively). I will post some further thoughts of my own soon.

 

God bless

Edited August 4, 2017 by Acadia

[LadyKay]

What protest? 

[Acadia]

42 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

What protest? 

Between the Catholic Church and "Protestants"/"Evangelicals." Please refer to the OP.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Acadia

[Acadia]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Rome has not changed, she still holds to the Anathema's of Trent. It is the compromising Evangelicals that have changed and are drinking Rome's Rum.

 Luther and the Reformers would probably be kicked out of many Evangelical Churches today as being mean spirited and narrow minded.

I agree. Unfortunately, the ecumenical movement is growing. Many "Protestant" and "Evangelical" leaders have official joined with the Catholic Church in an ongoing call for "unity" for the sake of a better world. Pope Francis has made huge strides in reuniting Protestant and Evangelical churches with the Catholic Church. This did not start with him, of course, but he has likely moved such reunification along more quickly than any Pope before him. (John Paul II was also very ecumenical).

I don't think this is going to change, which is why we need to be aware of it.

[LadyKay]

39 minutes ago, Acadia said:

Between the Catholic Church and "Protestants"/"Evangelicals." Please refer to the OP.

I was really unaware that there was a protest going on between Catholics and Protestants. I just let people be. 

[Acadia]

1 minute ago, LadyKay said:

I was really unaware that there was a protest going on between Catholics and Protestants. I just let people be. 

It's not a new thing...

My initial post will clarify what I am referring to.

[Acadia]

29 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Proximital and spacious unity will never be a substitute for unity around God's Word. Besides this ecumenical unity is over extending itself into Buddhism, Islam and other non historic Christian faiths.

Yes, you are correct.

[Acadia]

Here is a link to an official Vatican video from January of 2016 that further clarifies the ecumenism that Pope Francis is calling for, not only among all Christian denominations, but all world religions. 

"Pope Francis' Prayer Intentions for January 2016"

[Acadia]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

"We are all children of God" is the pope's false premise.

We may all be members of His creation thus making Him our common Creator, but one must be BORN AGAIN to be a child of God and part of the new Creation.

Absolutely. This false unity (apart from Christ) is really quite deceptive and frightening. On the surface it may seem good, but it requires setting aside the truth and the Gospel. An unacceptable compromise.

Unfortunately, Pope Francis is leading many people down this path of ecumenism.

[Acadia]

6 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Although I wouldn't put all the blame on the RCC, we also are to blame as a society for letting go of God's Word over the decades.

I agree. I've done just as much research into the Protestant/Evangelical side of the equation. Obviously a message like Bishop Palmer's would not be accepted if people were staying grounded in the truth. Also, such acceptance does not happen overnight.