Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[douggg]

14 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Scripture never says that.

Here is a part of the description of the man:

Daniel 11:36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard- of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

The person is no longer the King of Israel, the Antichrist, in Daniel 11:36, but the beast of Revelation 13.

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, douggg said:

Why are you saying the one seven instead of the 70th week?

What begins the 70th week?   What ends the 70th week?

The Rapture begins the 70th Week. The Second Coming ends the 70th Week.

19 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

Not sure what this thread is about since you answered the thread's title question with your first post.

Some seem to disagree.........................

17 hours ago, douggg said:

The Antichrist has to be someone who will be anointed the King of Israel - instead of and against the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

 

Exactly, the Anti-Christ will be against the Messiahs policies.

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Gabriel says one 'seven' or week.   As it is not a week as we think, 'seven' conveys what it means in the Hebrew.  You can read how it begins, and you can read how it ends.  Why are you asking me what everyone who has even a modicum of study on prophecy should know?  Don't you know?

This is true but both mean the same thing.

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Messiah means "Anointed".
Christ means "Anointed".

Anointed the Messiah of Israel. 

 

[douggg]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture begins the 70th Week. The Second Coming ends the 70th Week.

The 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27.       I agree with you regarding the Second Coming, Jesus return to planet earth, ends the 70th week.

The Rapture, we don't know exactly when that take place.    It might be before the 70th week begins or after the 70th week begins.

 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

Yes, but "the" messiah is the one special anointed.... who is the promised King of Israel, descended from David.    The disciples were all hopeful that Jesus was that king.     When John the Baptist was in prison, he became doubtful that Jesus was really the expected messiah - to be the King of israel - because Jesus was going around healing people and not gathering together an army to overthrow the Romans.    So John the Baptist has a message sent to Jesus - are you really the one or should we expect another.    Jesus confirmed that he was the one.    

Since it is known that the Antichrist will become the King of Israel - the messiah - in the eyes of the Jews (Judaism), it is important to know what they expect because the person is going to seem to fulfill their expectations.     Which fit the little horn - a great politician.    Someone who fights the battles of God in defending Israel - another expectation - which it will appear the little horn will do as he assembles his army in Greece as a deterent to keep Gog/Magog from invading Israel.        Another expectation that he renews the Mt. Sinai covenant (their view of the "new" covenant of Jeremiah 31) - which will happen when he oversees the reading of the law of Moses (another name for the Mt. Sinai covenant) for the 7 year cycle stated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.     Which begins the 70th week.

Israel will not accept the Anti-Christ as their "King". They are waiting for their real Messiah and Elijah will come and show them it is Jesus before the Day of the Lord. If you read Dan. 9:27 in the Hebrew. you understand that CONFIRM means he is STRONG and INSOLENT so this passage he Confirms and Agreement (Covenant ) means he forces an agreement/peace deal/security promise upon Israel. This Anti-Christ will arise from Greece, but he arises from Two Empires at once. Dan. 7 says he arises out of the Fourth Beast and Daniel 8 says he arises out of one f the Four Generals Kingdoms in the END TIMES. Since he has to arise out of the Fourth Beast then the Greek Kingdom has to be in the European Union !! That can only be Greece. He comes to power via Greece (Small peoples) the he becomes the European Union President.  You are right, he does wipe out the Muslim nations, most have no clue about that, that is what Rev. 17 means when it says the Kings destroy and burn the Harlot, (False Religion) they destroy all religions because the Beast demand to be worshiped as GOD !! No other Religions will be allowed to exist. This destroying of Islam will give him cred in the eyes of the E.U. and Israel, and he gains Israel trust somewhat, then forces a deal upon them.

16 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

No, it's not "known", so please provide chapter and verse saying the anti-Christ will be the King of Israel.

The beast-of-a-man comes from the "sea" which physically points to the Mediterranean, but also, according to the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament can refer to Europe as a "sea" of peoples, and that source just happens to be the people who tore down the city and the Sanctuary in A.D. 70, and from whom the "ruler" will come.

The Sea means Gentile Nations....out of the Earth means he is a Jew. The False Prophet will be a Jew (All Prophets have been Jews right ? Think about it.) and the Anti-Christ will be a Gentile Ruler, just like all the Gentile Rulers over Israel, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. 

16 hours ago, RobertS said:

Yeah; you're going to have to provide more than "it is known" to document where you're getting the "Antichrist will become the king of Israel" thing from, Douggg. Also, assembling his armies in Greece? Must have missed that one in Scripture. Could you do us the kind favor of posting chapter and verse where all of this is in the Bible?

Read my first post above....The Anti-Christ is born in Greece, NO DOUBT, but by the time he come to Full Power he will no longer be the Greek President (whatever they call him) but will be the E.U. President. He must be born in Greece. I have a blog on this. http://mrrondonmon.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-birthplace-of-anti-christ.html

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Israel will not accept the Anti-Christ as their "King". They are waiting for their real Messiah and Elijah will come and show them it is Jesus before the Day of the Lord.

And if you were a Jew, who is waiting for your messiah,  what would the "Messiah" mean to you?     Go to any Jewish site and see what the messiah means to them.   

The Antichrist will appear to them to be the "real" messsiah, someone other than Jesus in their view.     

Edited October 10, 2016 by douggg

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

That was Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the second century B.C.

No it was not....AE4 could not have done battle with Jesus (Prince of princes) nor was he defeated by the Holy Spirit (broken without hand) Daniel 7 and 8 is TWO EMPIRES that are both applicable, the Anti-Christ arises out of both of them.

 

17 hours ago, douggg said:

This is what I have been telling you about Daniel 8, the little horn waxing strong from the geographic location once one of the four break up kingdoms.

8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Following Gog/Magog, he moves into the middle east to gobble up all the oil rich territories all around Israel, in the wake of the muslims destruction, and occupies them with his army.      You can see why the Europeans will love the guy, plus there is so much anti-islam sentiment building up in europe right now by the native populations, that it is going to be politically popular.   

Moving his army in the middle east following Gog/Magog will be under the pretense of keeping peace.      Confirming the covenant for 7 year is not a peace pact, but his arrival will be on the pretense of peace.       The Jews will see him, in the wake of Gog/Magog, as being their messiah,  and the false prophet will anoint him the King of Israel.     Just as Samuel the prophet anointed both Saul and David.

 

The whole King of the North, South,  West etc. needs more study. Greece is both west and North.

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, RobertS said:

"And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven." (Revelation 13:1-6, NASB, emphasis mine)

The "land" and the "sea" have been telling references in prophecy, usually denoting the Jews (land) and the Gentiles (sea). The reference to the AC coming from the "sea" does not really give much room for him to be a Jew here.

All this is SPOT ON, but the part I will quote below misses a KEY Element. 

17 hours ago, RobertS said:

Still does not indicate that it is Greece; if you look at Daniel 11, it goes into detail on the breakup of Alexander the Great's empire. Later on in that chapter, it and compares the AC to other historical leaders who held the title "king of the North." This, along with  Daniel 8:21-24, places the AC as  basing in the northern kingdom of the split-up Greek Empire. This kingdom was ruled by Seleucus (on of Alexander's generals), and was comprised of of Syria, the Mesopotamian area and "Persia" (now "Iran" and "Iraq"). So considering that, nothing says it has to be Greece proper.

Not to mention that Scripture says this:

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." (Daniel 9:26, NASB)

The ones who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple were the Romans. Israel is not going to accept a gentile leader, and Revelation 13 reinforces that:

That is true, Israel does not accept this Anti-Christ/Gentile Leader as their Messiah, IF THEY DID why would they get angry when he set up and Image unto Himself for all to worship ? After all, if they think he is the Messiah then they would gladly worship this Image.  Daniel chapter 8 places the Anti-Christ in ONE OF THE FOUR KINGDOMS at the Latter Time, so it can be in any of the Four Generals Kingdoms. Since Daniel 7 says that the Anti-Christ will arise out of the Fourth Beast also, we have to CROSS REFERENCE and only Greece is in the European Union. The Anti-Christ has to be out of TWO-EMPIRES at once.

17 hours ago, douggg said:

do you know why it is that you have not heard the Antichrist will be the King of israel  (illegimate)?     Because we are 2000 years of Christianity removed from what was common knowledge to them living back in that day, in Israel.   

When we us the term Christ it is synonymous with Jesus - the Savior from our Sins.      So we don't think of Christ as being the King of Israel.

Just not the case, ANTI means AGAINST/OPPOSED to so the Anti-Christ is never accepted as the Messiah. He will be opposed to everything the Messiah stands for.

 

17 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Robert, we are not going to have a replay of the Ptolomey's and the Seleucids.    It happened, it is over.

 The little horn in Daniel 8 is end times, and does not wax strong from the north - but from the north and west.      On the map that would be Greece.     Parts of Turkey are north and west as well, but the nation of Turkey as a whole is north of Israel.

Greece is the eastern most frontier of the EU.    I am not saying that the little horn is from Greece - only that Greece is where he will stage his army prior to the Gog/Magog invasion - he attempts to deter.

In the end times passages in Daniel 11, it doesn't say the person is the King of the North (or king of the West for that matter).    The person is referred as "he" and "him" in Daniel 11:36-45.      That he is the King of West has to be ascertained from other bible verses....  and from the military reality of who can wage such conflicts against the other three quadrants of the world.

TRUE...Except the Anti-Christ is born in Greece, he doesn't automatically stage his Army in Greece.

17 hours ago, douggg said:

The person will be from the Romans, the end times version of the Roman Empire, the EU.    But that doesn't mean he is a gentile.    There are Jews in nearly every nation of the world.

The person in Revelation 13, that last 42 months - is after he has gone through his Antichrist stage - where he becomes the King of Israel, betrays them, and is no longer their king.      In Revelation 13, he is the beast, and the EU, his kingdom is his affiliation, not Israel at that time, and he persecutes the Jews, for rejecting him and his claim of being God or having attained God-hood.

 

The Beast rising out of the sea means he is a Gentile. He is Anti-Christ for all 7 Years, put he gets possessed by the Satan or Apollyon at the mid-way point or with 42 months left.

 

17 hours ago, douggg said:

Yes, but Cyrus was not "the" messiah.

Marcus, we have to look at what the Jews think about the messiah, to see how they are gong to be fooled.    To do that, you have to research their sites, like Judaism 101. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm    

The reason I know so much about this stuff is because I have been communicating with them at their counter(Christian)missionary sites for over ten years arguing back and forth, over 4000 posts.   Very few Christians have that sort of background - because it comes with a beating, the whole step of the way.

It is frustrating to me to come to my fellow Christians, at the eschatology sites to talk about the end times, because they lack the background information.   So I have to go through an education process like the last bunch of posts - which I get argued against at every turn.   It's another beat down.     I go through it all the time.  

You are wasting your time arguing with people God has blinded, until it is time for God to reveal Himself to them they will remain blinded. When the 70th Week of Daniel starts, God will bring them back unto His bosom by sending Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6) to turn them back unto Him. This happens before the Abomination of Desolation or Day of the Lord. Israel never accepts this Anti-Christ as their "King/Messiah", for some reason people have got this false notion, one reason is he rides a "White Horse" in Seal #1 but White has always been the color of a Conqueror.  And he goes forth to Conquer. 

16 hours ago, douggg said:

The person is no longer the King of Israel, the Antichrist, in Daniel 11:36, but the beast of Revelation 13.

That is POSSIBLE...But it is still the same mans Body. 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

The 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27.       I agree with you regarding the Second Coming, Jesus return to planet earth, ends the 70th week.

The Rapture, we don't know exactly when that take place.    It might be before the 70th week begins or after the 70th week begins.

 

This is a natural misconception. Everybody makes it. Dan. 9:27 says in the midst of the week not in the middle of the covenant of of 7 years. You see, think about it, why would any deal be for 7 years ? Like they know and understand there is ONLY 7 Years left in the Age of Man !! You see, Daniel is the one that understands when the Church age ends and the 70th Week begins, there will be ONLY 7 years left until the Messiah comes to save Israel from the Little Horn, AFTER the 70th Week begins, and that happens as soon as the Rapture happens. As per the Rapture I am 100 percent sure on that, some may differ, but the Holy Spirit is pretty clear.

 

2 hours ago, douggg said:

And if you were a Jew, who is waiting for your messiah,  what would the "Messiah" mean to you?     Go to any Jewish site and see what the messiah means to them.   

The Antichrist will appear to them to be the "real" messsiah, someone other than Jesus in their view.     

As soon as 100's Millions of Christians die ( and we will die and leave our bodies behind, they are corruptible ) and go to meet Jesus in the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture, don't you think Jews might get a clue. And then Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God before the Day of the Lord. 

 

They will not accept the Ant-Christ as their King-Messiah. 

 

God Bless

[douggg]

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

As soon as 100's Millions of Christians die ( and we will die and leave our bodies behind, they are corruptible ) and go to meet Jesus in the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture, don't you think Jews might get a clue. And then Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God before the Day of the Lord. 

 

They will not accept the Ant-Christ as their King-Messiah.

Actually they will for a short time -until he commits the transgression of desolation, the act of going into the temple sitting claiming to be God.

Jonn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

And you did not answer my question. "if you were a Jew, who is waiting for your messiah,  what would the "Messiah" mean to you?"    Why don't you go to their sites and read up on what the messsiah actually means to Jews.

You can't just say that the Jews will not accept the Antichrist, believing that he is the real messiah - when Jesus said if another come in his own name, him ye will receive.    And what Jews themselves say.    

 

The person who becomes the Anti-Christ is not a gentile, but a Jew.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by douggg

[douggg]

11 minutes ago, douggg said:

As soon as 100's Millions of Christians die ( and we will die and leave our bodies behind, they are corruptible ) and go to meet Jesus in the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture, don't you think Jews might get a clue. And then Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God before the Day of the Lord. 

No-one knows exactly when the rapture is going to be, except that it will take place sometime before the Antichrist goes into to the temple , sitting, claiming to be God.        Which that act by the Antichrist takes place approximately 3 years 3 months after he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate).

During that 3 years 3months, there will be many Christians who will fall away from believing that Jesus is the messiah, and will think the Antichrist is the true messiah.    This falling away is found in 2thessalonians2;3

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by douggg