Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[wingnut-]

 

Hi wingnut,

I agree with a lot of what you say, 2/3rds killed, Jerusalem given over for 42mths, sacrifices resumed in first 3 ½ yrs, seemingly fatal wound of A/C & Zech. 14 shows what happens at the end of that time frame. Great we are agreeing there.

Not sure where you thought I believed this, for I don`t.

`They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.`

Seems we have much to agree on. Marilyn.

 

PS. We may have to start another thread, wingnut, as we have moved quite away from the topic. If you are still wanting to discuss this it would be better under its own title. What do you think?

 

 

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

Sorry, I don't want to attribute something to you that you didn't say, or maybe I misunderstood what you meant.  I will post what I think you are referring to, and then post what you said that I understood to be your position.

 

Not sure where you thought I believed this, for I don`t.

`They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.`

 

 

I do see the connection, wingnut however I see Zech. 14 as a foretaste in time, Millennium before the New heavens & New Earth with the New Jerusalem.

 

 

From what you said above, I thought you were saying this was in the latter part of the millenium.  If that is the case, you have to account for the conditions Zechariah speaks of.  These are the conditions from the time the sixth seal is opened until He comes and reigns.  So that is one thousand years of this frosty darkness, because you said that He will be ruling from heaven, so His light will not be on the earth.  We know God the Father comes down with New Jerusalem according to Rev. 21. , and then we get a direct proclamation from Him.

 

Revelation 21:³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

Straight from the throne, so His light will not be here.  And then He says this just after.

 

Revelation 21:⁶ He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. ⁷ Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. ⁸ But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

So He tells us that only those who are victorious inherit the water of life, and the honor of being called His children.  He also tells us that the lake of fire is the second death.  This is why I say that the two cannot be separated.  God the Father tells us straight from His own mouth.  Therefore, living water cannot be available to people that will eventually suffer the second death, which is what happens to people from your millenial viewpoint.  All who live during this thousand years will require water, including the wicked.  For me, the voice from the throne cannot lie, so what you are suggesting cannot be true.

 

I also think there is one other passage of note that specifically addresses and clarifies what Zechariah is saying.

 

Revelation 21:²² I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. ²³ The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. ²⁴ The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. ²⁵ On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. ²⁶ The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. ²⁷ Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

No sun, no moon, God and Jesus provide the light.  When that 6th seal is opened, the sun and moon and stars are going away and not coming back, ever.  There will be no more night, only day.  Nations and kings are still being mentioned, just like they are in Zechariah.  And only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life inherit all of this.  I really don't see any argument against the living water, to me this is ironclad, straight from the mouth of God.

 

It appears we do agree on quite a few things, so I am curious how you see the Jewish remnant protected for the final 3 1/2 years, the church having been raptured before this begins, and still account for the offspring in Revelation 12?  Who is left once you remove the Jewish remnant and the church to represent the group that obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus?

 

So I guess I'm really not understanding your overall position, maybe you can help clear some of that up for me. Really it seems to me that all of the bible is applicable to the end times, you have to admit, you don't see the book of Numbers come up much in eschatology discussions    So I don't really see that we have strayed from the OP at all, we have just gotten into the finer details.  I think maybe a thread on Old Testament prophets would be a good discussion though, particularly in regards to this topic, but in their entirety as well.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,
 
Just to clarify before I work on the rest of your comments -

They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.`

 

Do you mean here that I think the 3 1/2 years are in the millennium?

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

It seems we disagree concerning Zech. 14: 16 - 21 & Rev. 21 & 22. I see the former (Zech.) as in the millennium & the latter (Rev.) as after the millennium. I will do the details in another post.

 

As to the 1/3rd protected, they would be hiding in the mountains as the Lord said they should do. Now remember these are just the ones in the land of Israel, there are other Jewish people all over the world at that time who are protected by some of the Gentiles.

 

`They shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations....to my holy mountain Jerusalem.` (Isa. 66: 20)

 

Remember the `sheep` people, who looked after Jesus` brethren.

 

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

 

Isaiah 24

19 The earth is utterly broken down , the earth is clean dissolved , the earth is moved exceedingly .

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall , and not rise again .

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together , as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited .

23 Then the moon shall be confounded , and the sun ashamed , when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.

 

As far as I know, there is no literal "thousand years" reference like Rev.20 has within the OT prophets, but there are hints here and there. That one above reveals a certain amount of time passing between His reign in Jerusalem and then those locked in the pit prison being "visited" at some point later. The events written in the latter part of Zechariah 14 about those left that came upon Jerusalem being required to come up to Jerusalem and worship The King (Jesus) in that time also is a pointer, if you think about it.

 

Then there is the idea of 2 Peter 3:8, if you're given to understand it according to God's overall Plan timeline.

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

Thank you for the scripture, it is a nice piece to the puzzle.  If you or anyone else can think of any others, it would be most helpful.  I am beginning to review all of the prophecies again with this in mind, I think there is another piece or two to be found.  Obviously, Daniel mentions additional days being added, so the question really becomes when that will take place.  The passage from Isaiah 24 appears to speak toward this, but from the way I understand it this would appear to be in regards to the judgement of the angels, and the judgement of the dead.  Keep in mind what Jude said regarding the fallen angels.

 

Jude 1:⁶ And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

Jude seems to indicate here that the fallen angels are already bound, which would speak to the passing of time before they face judgement.  We already know from scripture that people outside of His grace go to a place where they still have concerns for the living.  I think this is what we see referred to as Hades.  The point is, many people have been waiting there for some time now, and it appears the fallen angels other than Satan have been waiting as well.

 

However, when we look at all of Matthew 25 alongside all the other scripture which speaks of the judging, it appears to me that this, along with the rewarding of the prophets and then the saints would appear to account for the additional time in Daniel.  In the 6th trumpet judgement, we see 200 million mounted troops carrying it out, that is a lot of angels, and still not all of them.  Originally one third of the angels went with Satan, so we are talking about a large number.  We are also talking about a large number of people outside His grace, before Jesus, and since.  We also see that the group who will be rewarded is a large multitude.

 

The other thing is that even in heavily symbolic sections of God's Word, when a specific time amount is given, and no instruction to go with it to show that it is symbolic, then it is to be taken literally; and that whether it's written in Revelation or any other Book. Ezekiel 4:5 is clear that the days he was given to show were symbolic of years. Doesn't mean to apply that formula in Ezek.4 anywhere else unless specifically mentioned. In Daniel 9 even the sevens represent literal time periods.

 

 

I agree with you in a sense, but then there are clear circumstances that this is not the case as well.  Take Daniel's seventy weeks as one example, the clarification of the time frame comes from understanding that 483 years of this were fulfilled when Jesus rode into Jerusalem.  Without that, we would not understand that the reference in Daniel was to years instead of weeks.  So I have to disagree that the time is always specified, just like when we read from the prophets they consistently use the phrase, "in that day" or "on that day", and are not always speaking to a literal day, but to a general time frame, like the end times as one example.  Most of the time frames we do understand is not because it was specified literally, but because we understand the prophecy as being fulfilled.

 

I agree with you that Revelation is not the only book written symbolically, all prophecy is symbolic in nature.  What makes Revelation unique is that it is much thicker with symbolism, in most of the stories every character is a symbolic reference, and is broken into more details than other prophecies.  I think it is this way because of the circumstances under which it was written.  I actually have the companion bible you are referring to, it was originally my dad's, and after his passing it came to me.  It continues to get a lot of use.

 

I look forward to your response, and any other scripture which discusses the amount of time in the end.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

Just to clarify before I work on the rest of your comments -

 

 

They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal.`

 

Do you mean here that I think the 3 1/2 years are in the millennium?

 

Marilyn.

 

No, I am speaking to the events and conditions Zechariah is discussing.

[Marilyn C]

We know God the Father comes down with New Jerusalem according to Rev. 21. , and then we get a direct proclamation from Him.

Revelation 21:³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Hi wingnut,

Let`s see if we can work through some of this. This scripture actually says `God`s dwelling place is now among the people.` It is a `dwelling place.` it is not God the Father who has left His eternal abode in the highest heavens, but a dwelling place that has been made holy for His presence to be there. Remember the `Holy of Holies,` where God`s presence dwelt with Israel. Also from King Solomon -

`But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven & the heaven of heavens cannot contain you. How much less this temple which I have built!` (1 Kings 8: 27)

 

And then He says this just after.

Revelation 21:⁶ He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. ⁷ Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. ⁸ But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

So He tells us that only those who are victorious inherit the water of life, and the honor of being called His children. He also tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. This is why I say that the two cannot be separated. God the Father tells us straight from His own mouth. Therefore, living water cannot be available to people that will eventually suffer the second death, which is what happens to people from your millennial viewpoint. All who live during this thousand years will require water, including the wicked. For me, the voice from the throne cannot lie, so what you are suggesting cannot be true.

Now to the `living water` in the New Jerusalem. We know that this `dwelling place` comes down from heaven. It has been made in heaven of things eternal, & not of the earth where things are transient. We see, gold, precious stones, trees, water, etc so all these are symbolic of what is eternal. I will just focus on the `living water.` Jesus Himself tells us what this water is that will quench all our thirst.

 

`Jesus answered & said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water (in the well) will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.` (John 4: 14)

 

`Jesus stood & cried out, saying, “If anyone thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.` (John 8: 38 & 39)

 

And as you so rightly said that the living water cannot be available to those who suffer the second death. The everlasting life of Christ by the Holy Spirit is available to those in God`s dwelling place with man that will come down from heaven.

 

However in Zechariah 14 we also see living waters, but these are not symbolic but are fresh, renewing waters from Jerusalem flowing out to the eastern & western seas. This is to renew the earth after it has become polluted. This is in the Millennium from the earthly Jerusalem which will be raised up & inhabited again after the war.

 

`All the land will be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up & inhabited in her place from Benjamin`s Gate to the place of the First gate & the Corner gate, & from the Tower of Hananeel to the king`s winepresses.

The people shall dwell in it; & no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.` (Zech. 14: 10 – 11)

I think that is enough to ponder on & discuss at the moment.

Marilyn.

 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Marilyn C

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

Let`s see if we can work through some of this. This scripture actually says `God`s dwelling place is now among the people.` It is a `dwelling place.` it is not God the Father who has left His eternal abode in the highest heavens, but a dwelling place that has been made holy for His presence to be there. Remember the `Holy of Holies,` where God`s presence dwelt with Israel. Also from King Solomon -

`But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven & the heaven of heavens cannot contain you. How much less this temple which I have built!` (1 Kings 8: 27)

 

 

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I would say that it is not just a dwelling place, it is God's dwelling place, and that comes straight from His mouth.  He also says that this dwelling place is coming down, with Him, at the ushering in of a new age.  In this instance, we see what the intent was all along, referring to the Holy of Holies.

 

Now to the `living water` in the New Jerusalem. We know that this `dwelling place` comes down from heaven. It has been made in heaven of things eternal, & not of the earth where things are transient. We see, gold, precious stones, trees, water, etc so all these are symbolic of what is eternal. I will just focus on the `living water.` Jesus Himself tells us what this water is that will quench all our thirst.

 

`Jesus answered & said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water (in the well) will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.` (John 4: 14)

 

`Jesus stood & cried out, saying, “If anyone thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.` (John 8: 38 & 39)

 

And as you so rightly said that the living water cannot be available to those who suffer the second death. The everlasting life of Christ by the Holy Spirit is available to those in God`s dwelling place with man that will come down from heaven.

 

 

Ok, so here is the problem with the living water in conjunction with what you present.  For starters, we see that the water on this earth will be struck and become undrinkable, turned to blood.  Zechariah says that in this time he is speaking about, living water will come.  As you present it, this living water will cleanse the bad water, and provide the earth with drinkable water again for this thousand year period.  This means that everyone who resides on this planet for your thousand year period will be drinking that living water.  God says they cannot.  Living water is only for believers, and we know that at the end of the millenium there are wicked people that rise up for one last stand.  They could not survive a thousand years without water, and they cannot drink the living water.

 

However in Zechariah 14 we also see living waters, but these are not symbolic but are fresh, renewing waters from Jerusalem flowing out to the eastern & western seas. This is to renew the earth after it has become polluted. This is in the Millennium from the earthly Jerusalem which will be raised up & inhabited again after the war.

 

 

The symbolism of the living water is consistent throughout scripture, including the passages you bring into the discussion.  We both agree that it is only for believers, so what you present is not possible.  If Zechariah was referring to fresh water, he would have said fresh water, but he does not, he says living water, and that is symbolic.  There are no mistakes in scripture.  Essentially, your argument here is no different than if I were to say, the Lamb of God is a symbolic reference to Jesus any time you see it in scripture, except for this one place.  That is inconsistent, and it is done to support a doctrine that is clearly flawed.  If the symbols are being changed, then the truth is lost, so I cannot accept what you present for this reason.

 

I also think it is odd that an entire belief of a literal thousand year period comes from one single book of the bible, not at all taking into account that the only place a thousand years is mentioned is in that one book.  The prophets do not speak of it in this light at all, their writings refer to it as a day, yet this seems to be irrelevant, and people want to run with a thousand years.  For this to be true, scripture would reveal this thousand years in some other book or prophecy, we would find that confirmation elsewhere, but we do not.

 

I look forward to your response as always, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

I am glad you have written your specific reason re: the living water. So let`s look a bit deeper into God`s word & follow your important reason – to be consistent with what God says are symbols or are literal.

 

 

The symbolism of the living water is consistent throughout scripture, including the passages you bring into the discussion. We both agree that it is only for believers, so what you present is not possible. If Zechariah was referring to fresh water, he would have said fresh water, but he does not, he says living water, and that is symbolic. There are no mistakes in scripture. Essentially, your argument here is no different than if I were to say, the Lamb of God is a symbolic reference to Jesus any time you see it in scripture, except for this one place. That is inconsistent, and it is done to support a doctrine that is clearly flawed. If the symbols are being changed, then the truth is lost, so I cannot accept what you present for this reason.

 

Let`s look at what God says each of the `living waters` are in His word: Literal or Symbolic.

THE NEW TESTAMENT.

 

John 4: 11. Literal or symbolic. It is obvious from the context that it is symbolic, `the water that I shall give will become IN him....everlasting life.` This is further explained in John 8: 38 & 39 where Jesus says that this `living water` is the Holy Spirit.` Thus these scriptures are clearly speaking of symbolic living waters.

 

`Jesus answered & said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water (in the well) will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.` (John 4: 14)

 

`Jesus stood & cried out, saying, “If anyone thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.` (John 8: 38 & 39)

 

Rev. 22: 1. Literal or symbolic. Again it is very clear from the context that this water comes from the throne of God & the lamb. It is thus symbolic of God`s Holy Spirit.

 

`And he showed me a pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God & of the lamb.` (Rev. 22: 1)



THE OLD TESTAMENT.

 

The Hebrew word for `living` is `chay,` - meaning alive, raw (flesh) however when connected to plant, water, or year it means – fresh. And it can be literal or symbolic.

 

Jeremiah 2: 13. Literal or symbolic. Here again we see that God has interpreted the living waters as Himself. Thus it is symbolic.

 

`For my people have committed two evils; They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters...`(Jer. 2: 13)

 

Jeremiah 17: 13. Literal or symbolic. Clearly God interprets His word & show us that He is speaking of these living waters as Himself, again. Thus it is symbolic.

 

`Those that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.` (Jer. 17: 13)

Song of Solomon 4: 15. Literal or symbolic. This is a love song of the love of a husband & wife as the love between Jehovah & Israel. In this passage the wife is likened to a garden with fruits & spices & a well of living / fresh water. The Lord does not say that this water is Himself but refers to it as coming from Lebanon, showing that it is in Israel. Thus it is literal water from Lebanon in the picture presented.

 

`A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse,....a fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, & streams from Lebanon.` (Song of Sol. 4: 15)

Zechariah 14: 8. Literal or symbolic. Here we are shown living / fresh waters (Heb. `chay` - fresh), that are flowing out from Jerusalem. We are not told by God that that means Himself, thus we see that it is literal waters to bring healing to the rivers, sea & creatures.

 

`And in that day it shall be that living / fresh (Heb. `chay` - fresh) waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half towards the eastern sea & half of them towards the western sea;...`(Zech. 14: 8)

 

As you said wingnut it is important to see how God uses His symbols. Thus we have done & to me it is quite clear which are literal & which are symbolic. I still have more comments on other parts of your reply but will leave it till you ponder this one.

 

Bless you, bro, in your study, Marilyn.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Marilyn C

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

I am glad you have written your specific reason re: the living water. So let`s look a bit deeper into God`s word & follow your important reason – to be consistent with what God says are symbols or are literal.

 

 

The symbolism of the living water is consistent throughout scripture, including the passages you bring into the discussion. We both agree that it is only for believers, so what you present is not possible. If Zechariah was referring to fresh water, he would have said fresh water, but he does not, he says living water, and that is symbolic. There are no mistakes in scripture. Essentially, your argument here is no different than if I were to say, the Lamb of God is a symbolic reference to Jesus any time you see it in scripture, except for this one place. That is inconsistent, and it is done to support a doctrine that is clearly flawed. If the symbols are being changed, then the truth is lost, so I cannot accept what you present for this reason.

 

Let`s look at what God says each of the `living waters` are in His word: Literal or Symbolic.

THE NEW TESTAMENT.

 

John 4: 11. Literal or symbolic. It is obvious from the context that it is symbolic, `the water that I shall give will become IN him....everlasting life.` This is further explained in John 8: 38 & 39 where Jesus says that this `living water` is the Holy Spirit.` Thus these scriptures are clearly speaking of symbolic living waters.

 

`Jesus answered & said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water (in the well) will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.` (John 4: 14)

 

`Jesus stood & cried out, saying, “If anyone thirst, let him come to me & drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.` (John 8: 38 & 39)

 

Rev. 22: 1. Literal or symbolic. Again it is very clear from the context that this water comes from the throne of God & the lamb. It is thus symbolic of God`s Holy Spirit.

 

`And he showed me a pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God & of the lamb.` (Rev. 22: 1)

THE OLD TESTAMENT.

 

The Hebrew word for `living` is `chay,` - meaning alive, raw (flesh) however when connected to plant, water, or year it means – fresh. And it can be literal or symbolic.

 

Jeremiah 2: 13. Literal or symbolic. Here again we see that God has interpreted the living waters as Himself. Thus it is symbolic.

 

`For my people have committed two evils; They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters...`(Jer. 2: 13)

 

Jeremiah 17: 13. Literal or symbolic. Clearly God interprets His word & show us that He is speaking of these living waters as Himself, again. Thus it is symbolic.

 

`Those that depart from Me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.` (Jer. 17: 13)

Song of Solomon 4: 15. Literal or symbolic. This is a love song of the love of a husband & wife as the love between Jehovah & Israel. In this passage the wife is likened to a garden with fruits & spices & a well of living / fresh water. The Lord does not say that this water is Himself but refers to it as coming from Lebanon, showing that it is in Israel. Thus it is literal water from Lebanon in the picture presented.

 

`A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse,....a fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, & streams from Lebanon.` (Song of Sol. 4: 15)

Zechariah 14: 8. Literal or symbolic. Here we are shown living / fresh waters (Heb. `chay` - fresh), that are flowing out from Jerusalem. We are not told by God that that means Himself, thus we see that it is literal waters to bring healing to the rivers, sea & creatures.

 

`And in that day it shall be that living / fresh (Heb. `chay` - fresh) waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half towards the eastern sea & half of them towards the western sea;...`(Zech. 14: 8)

 

As you said wingnut it is important to see how God uses His symbols. Thus we have done & to me it is quite clear which are literal & which are symbolic. I still have more comments on other parts of your reply but will leave it till you ponder this one.

 

Bless you, bro, in your study, Marilyn.

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I think where we part ways on this is that in each instance above, I see them all as symbolic.  I want to specifically discuss the passage you mention from Song of Solomon.  As you correctly pointed out, this is symbolic of the love between God and Israel, so we start from the perspective that this is all symbolic.  Specifically though, looking at verse 15, according to the original text the proper translation would be, "I am a garden fountain, a well of flowing water streaming down from Lebanon." (spoken by the Beloved).  The KJV translates the verse as, " A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon."

 

Either way, this is about God and Israel, so the living water is still symbolic of the same thing it is everywhere else.  When we are given symbols, they don't change, God does not change.  As for the Zechariah passage, obviously there are multiple symbols which all point to the same thing, the Feast of Tabernacles, the horses and kitchen pottery being inscribed with Holy to the Lord, etc.  It appears that if you see a literal place mentioned, such as Lebanon in this instance, then you assert that it is a literal statement and not symbolic.  In verse 11 she is told the fragrance of her garments are like that of Lebanon, is this literal as well?  In verse 4 she is told that her neck is like the tower of David, built with elegance and having thousand of shields hung on it, is this literal?  I honestly don't see much in Song of Solomon that can be taken literally.

 

Of course the biggest problem with what you present are the conditions, no sun, no moon, no stars.  A thousand years of this no light, because you said Jesus is in heaven.  Greenery will not grow without light, so what are these people eating?  It isn't just about the living water, it is about all of these symbols in Zechariah, and they all point to the same time period.  If you just take the horses and kitchen pottery having Holy to the Lord inscribed on them, this in itself makes it evident that Zechariah is speaking of eternity as he concludes his prophecy, just like John ends Revelation.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,
 
A quick reply before we get on to the solar system.
 
Now you said - `When we are given symbols, they don't change, God does not change.` I agree but only when God tells us what they are. According to you , I think we would have a `lion` only as Jesus, whereas it is used for Satan & earthly powers.
 
Yes the Song of Solomon is a picture, but as you said -  `In verse 11 she is told the fragrance of her garments are like that of Lebanon, is this literal as well? In verse 4 she is told that her neck is like the tower of David, built with elegance and having thousand of shields hung on it, is this literal?` However have you noted the word `like,` for that is the language of a symbol. Something is `like` something else. We do not see those words `as, like` etc in Zech. 14. We cannot just pick & choose what we want to make symbols & that is what you are doing, friend.

 

Seriously, think honestly about this, bro. Marilyn.