Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2024 at 3:22 PM, WilliamL said:

But it isn't; it is about the Son of Perdition, who verse 8 tells us comes to his end at the Parousia; which event is post-trib, pre-wrath. Whereas the Beast does not ascend from the Abyss until that Wrath has already commenced.

I have heard this before. Not sure why we need more than one being to be both the beast and the man of sin, the son of perdition. Jesus has many different names denoting His many attributes. A man can be a husband, father, lover, friend, etc., but when it comes to the end of the age dictator he can't be a beast and antichrist, son of perdition, etc., all in one.

 

On 6/16/2024 at 3:22 PM, WilliamL said:

The word "the" is called the definite article for a reason: it denotes "a particular person or thing." So by definition there can only be ONE of them, not many of them (in the case here, antichrists), as both John and Jesus said there would be.

Yes, particular; as in noteworthy or exceptional, not the only one ever in existence. 

"The" does not carry the meaning 'single', it's definite; "That one" from a group of similar ones. So yes, the antichrist is a concept exceptional and particular over and above a group of the similar. 

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not sure why we need more than one being to be both the beast and the man of sin, the son of perdition.

It is not about opinions about what we need, it is about the testimony of the Word. And the Word is specific that the Son of Perdition meets his demise at the Parousia of Christ (2 Thes. 2:8), when the rapture takes place (1 Thes. 4:15-17), and the Beast does not arrive on the scene until the Abyss is opened (Rev. 9; 11:7 etc.), well after the raptured elect of Christ have ascended to stand before the throne of God in heaven. Rev. 7:9-14

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

"The" does not carry the meaning 'single', it's definite; "That one" from a group of similar ones. So yes, the antichrist is a concept exceptional and particular over and above a group of the similar. 

So the two different individuals, the Son of Perdition and the Beast, cannot both be rightly called "the antichrist." Not to mention the fact that if you had to choose one personage to be called The Antichrist, hands down it would have to be Satan, not either of the two above.

[Mr. M]

12 minutes ago, TheWorld4668 said:

"I will protect you from the hour of trial..." 

(Revelation 3)

 

I don't know if this means "physically escaping" the tribulation; or, God will be with us while the tribulation is going on around us. 

 

I have to admit my faith gets "weak" when I imagine bodies soaring to heaven 😮 👀 😆

I look to the plagues of Egypt as a foreshadowing.

Israel was right there, but unharmed throughout,

and of course the Passover, and the sanctification

of the firstborn of man and beast.

A significant motif in its own right.

[Diaste]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:08 PM, WilliamL said:

It is not about opinions about what we need, it is about the testimony of the Word. And the Word is specific that the Son of Perdition meets his demise at the Parousia of Christ (2 Thes. 2:8), when the rapture takes place (1 Thes. 4:15-17), and the Beast does not arrive on the scene until the Abyss is opened (Rev. 9; 11:7 etc.), well after the raptured elect of Christ have ascended to stand before the throne of God in heaven. Rev. 7:9-14

2 Thess 2:8 does not record that immediately upon the return of Jesus, at the very moment the sky parts and Jesus rides through the clouds, the son of perdition[beast] is destroyed. 

In fact, the idea behind the word used for destroy in 2 Thess 2:8 is 'put an end to operations'

"2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith)."

In contrast, if the prophecy was meant to say 'kill' in 2 Thess 2-8 then Paul could have said;

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Or Paul could have used the following term:

apokteinó or apoktennó: to kill

Original Word: ἀποκτείνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apokteinó or apoktennó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-ti'-no)
Definition: to kill
Usage: I put to death, kill; fig: I abolish.

So no. The return of Jesus puts an end to the operations of the son of perdition, the man of sin, the beast, antichrist and then Jesus hurls wrath at the beast and his kingdom. 

On 6/19/2024 at 3:08 PM, WilliamL said:

So the two different individuals, the Son of Perdition and the Beast, cannot both be rightly called "the antichrist." Not to mention the fact that if you had to choose one personage to be called The Antichrist, hands down it would have to be Satan, not either of the two above.

Sure can. How many titles does Jesus have? I can name several from just Isaiah: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. In the NT there are many more.

A single individual can have many titles. This is the same with the end of the age beast. All the same individual called variously: the little horn, man of sin, son of perdition, the beast. The son of perdition and the beast are the same person, the names are descriptors of attributes. 

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

2 Thess 2:8 does not record that immediately upon the return of Jesus, at the very moment the sky parts and Jesus rides through the clouds, the son of perdition[beast] is destroyed. 

In fact, the idea behind the word used for destroy in 2 Thess 2:8 is 'put an end to operations'

"2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith)."

Note that some of these definitions effectively do say he will come to his end, such as "done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish."

The Parallel OT verse about this time and person is Daniel 11:45 -- "...he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." That seems pretty definitive.

Also note that there are only two Sons of Perdition in the Bible: Judas, and the Man of Sin. Judas died just before Jesus revealed Himself after His resurrection-from-the-dead appearance.

On 6/23/2024 at 5:37 AM, Diaste said:

A single individual can have many titles. This is the same with the end of the age beast. All the same individual called variously: the little horn, man of sin, son of perdition, the beast.

Except, as the scriptures I have shown make clear, the Son of Perdition comes before, and "shall come to his end" at, the Parousia of Jesus, while the Beast most definitely comes afterward.

[Diaste]

On 6/24/2024 at 1:44 PM, WilliamL said:

Note that some of these definitions effectively do say he will come to his end, such as "done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish."

The Parallel OT verse about this time and person is Daniel 11:45 -- "...he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." That seems pretty definitive.

Also note that there are only two Sons of Perdition in the Bible: Judas, and the Man of Sin. Judas died just before Jesus revealed Himself after His resurrection-from-the-dead appearance.

Yes. I did give a contrast however. The idea here isn't 'to kill'. 

Certainly he will come to his end.

On 6/24/2024 at 1:44 PM, WilliamL said:

Except, as the scriptures I have shown make clear, the Son of Perdition comes before, and "shall come to his end" at, the Parousia of Jesus, while the Beast most definitely comes afterward.

That seems to depend on the timeline. I don't see a timeline where the beast rises after Jesus returns.

[WilliamL]

On 6/26/2024 at 3:05 AM, Diaste said:

Yes. I did give a contrast however. The idea here isn't 'to kill'. 

Certainly he will come to his end.

That seems to depend on the timeline. I don't see a timeline where the beast rises after Jesus returns.

As I have pointed out many times, the Beast is to ascend from the Abyss, the Abyss isn't opened until the fifth trumpet, whereas the raptured elect are seen in heaven before the seventh seal is opened.

[Diaste]

On 6/28/2024 at 7:43 AM, WilliamL said:

As I have pointed out many times, the Beast is to ascend from the Abyss, the Abyss isn't opened until the fifth trumpet, whereas the raptured elect are seen in heaven before the seventh seal is opened.

What is seen ascending from the abyss in Rev 9 are the weird and creepy locusts. The king over them, the angel of the abyss, Abaddon, isn't said to rise from out of the abyss, scripture doesn't say Abaddon/Apollyon is even in the abyss.

It's possible the star given the key to open the pit of the abyss is the very same king over the abyss, and the star is opening the abyss from outside the abyss. 

It's true the 8th king rises from the abyss, but it does not follow this 8th king is Abaddon. It may be, but I see no written evidence associating the two as the same entity. 

I can make the association the little horn, man of sin, son of perdition, the beast and the willful king are the same person based on attributes recorded in the prophecies. This in in contrast to what is said about Abaddon. 

The attributes in question make this singular entity very, very antichrist; the antichrist.

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Abaddon, isn't said to rise from out of the abyss, scripture doesn't say Abaddon/Apollyon is even in the abyss.

Whether or not Abaddon is the Beast (he is, but I won't go into that), Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 both state that the Beast will "ascend out of the Abyss."

On 6/28/2024 at 7:43 AM, WilliamL said:

As I have pointed out many times, the Beast is to ascend from the Abyss...

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Whether or not Abaddon is the Beast (he is, but I won't go into that), Rev. 11:7 and 17:8 both state that the Beast will "ascend out of the Abyss."

 

Go into it. If he is the beast, I'd like to know.

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 6/28/2024 at 7:43 AM, WilliamL said:

As I have pointed out many times, the Beast is to ascend from the Abyss...

 

I agree.