Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, NConly said:

I do not see where I said Israel will be on earth or in heaven or anywhere else. But I agree Israel will end up on the land that God gave to their fore fathers. My points in my post was Israel will have to accept Jesus as their Savior and when they do then Ezk 36:25-28 can happen which describes the new covenant.

Shalom, again, NConly.

Israel SHALL be upon the earth in the LAND! And, their King shall also be there with them. And, where the King goes, WE TOO shall go. Thus, we too shall be upon the earth. This is our destination for ETERNITY!

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

You said, 

"Ezk 36 24-28 I posted. Says in v24

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

I believe this has happened in 1948. This verse says nothing about old or new covenant."

Yes I understand v 24 says nothing about the new covenant. It is about bring the scattered back to their land.

The other verses I posted along with v24 were v 25-28 in same post. V 25-28 imo describes the new covenant.

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

You said, 

"Ezk 36 24-28 I posted. Says in v24

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

I believe this has happened in 1948. This verse says nothing about old or new covenant."

Yes I understand v 24 says nothing about the new covenant. It is about bring the scattered back to their land.

The other verses I posted along with v24 were v 25-28 in same post. V 25-28 imo describes the new covenant.

[choir loft]

On 5/29/2024 at 11:05 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

Don't go looking in history for a "seven-year period" that can be called "tribulation." The seventieth Seven was started on the day the Messiah was baptized. It ended when He left them "Desolate" (Matt. 23:38) and they crucified Him under the epitaph, "Yeeshuwa` Natsratiy HaMelekh HaYhudiym" - "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews." (Matt. 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19). This was the FIRST HALF of the Seven, and it was HE who split the final Seven in half, postponing the SECOND HALF until He returns AFTER the Great Tribulation, the "Time of Jacob's Trouble," when once again He will offer the Kingdom of God to the Jews. This time, they will anoint Him King of the Jews, and then He will call home the rest of the children of Israel from wherever they have been scattered around the world. After the Second Half of the Seventieth Seven, He will be anointed King of all Israel, and He will begin to grow His Kingdom by subduing all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:25), for "He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet." This will take a while; John says, a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6).

As far as it "not happening again," re-read Zechariah 12-14.

Typical of those who deny scripture.

Antisemitic Jew hate....pure and simple....and as disgusting as any lie of the devil.

Who is JESUS CHRIST?  He said it wouldn't happen again.

Jeremiah called it Tribulation and Daniel said it would be a seven year period.

HISTORY marks the time from 1938 to 1945 as the most troubling period Jews had ever known in all of history.  7 years. Deny it all you want.  Six million dead Jews will call you a liar.  85 million dead during WWII will do the same.  May they all haunt your waking and sleeping mind.

Those that deny history, the prophets of Israel and Christ Himself are those who would rewrite everything for their own purpose.

What is that purpose?

To justify antisemitic hatred of Jews and to hope for ANOTHER bloodbath of innocent men women and children simply because they don't attend church.  Nazis love that sort of doctrine.

Such persons ought to be ashamed of themselves for wishing evil upon Jews.  God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse it.  The 1st church of Mephistopheles believes as you do.

Of such were the pharisees of Jesus' time.  They wouldn't admit what was going on either.   Such people will have their reward (John 3:19).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited May 31 by choir loft

[Retrobyter]

On 5/31/2024 at 2:46 PM, choir loft said:

Typical of those who deny scripture.

Antisemitic Jew hate....pure and simple....and as disgusting as any lie of the devil.

Shalom, choir-loft.

Just who do you think you are?! I AM a Jew, pure and simple!

On 5/31/2024 at 2:46 PM, choir loft said:

Who is JESUS CHRIST?  He said it wouldn't happen again.

It WON'T happen again, but it's STILL GOING ON! We're not out of the Tribulation, yet!

On 5/31/2024 at 2:46 PM, choir loft said:

Jeremiah called it Tribulation and Daniel said it would be a seven year period.

Nope. Sorry, bro', but Daniel did NOT say it would be a "seven-year period!" That's a COMMON MISTAKE! It's been ASSUMED to be "seven years," but it's because of a MISREADING of Daniel 9!

The "he" in Daniel 9:27 goes back to the "Messiah" in verse 26, NOT to the "prince that shall come!" The Hebrew word נָגִ֤יד or "naagiyd," translated "prince" in verse 26, is the SECOND NOUN in the phrase עַ֣ם נָגִ֤יד or "`am naagiyd," which is a noun construct state. In such a phrase, the two nouns are translated with the word "of" between them when translated into English. It translates to "[the] people of [the] prince." As such, the second noun is no more than an adjective modifier of the first noun, and does NOT participate in the subject or direct object or indirect object of the sentence in Hebrew. The same is true when translated into English: the "of" makes the second noun THE OBJECT OF THE PREPOSITION "of!" So, this noun, too, is isolated from the primary parts of speech in the sentence.

Therefore, when one reads,

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

the "he" in verse 27 goes back to the "Messiah" in verse 26!

The three occurrences of the "he" in verse 27 are not actually there in verse 27, except in the structure of the verbs (which have masculine singular forms). If they reflected back to the noun construct state, they would have to be referring to "the people" rather than "of the prince!" In the Hebrew, the two verses are ONE COMPOUND SENTENCE! And, the ONLY noun which could be the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27 is "Messiah" in verse 26!

So, substituting the antecedent for the pronouns, we would get ...

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations the Messiah shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, "the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many." What covenant is that? It's the DAVIDIC Covenant! The Davidic Covenant is what makes Yeeshuwa` the "Messiah!" (See 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17.) Just as His ancestor David was king over Judah for 7 years in Hebron, so the Messiah was to be Judah's King ("the King of the Jews") for 7 years, but the elders of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") would not accept Him as their King!

The vav-connective, commonly translated as "and," can also be translated as "but," and in this case, it would be more understandable:

"The Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (Seven of years), but in the midst of the week (3.5 years), the Messiah shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (gift) to cease,..."

This was accomplished by His death on the cross as the FINAL Sacrifice that God would accept for mankind's sin! While the "sacrifices" continued until the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D., they were meaningless butcherings since the VEIL IN THE TEMPLE was ripped down the middle! (Read Hebrews 10.)

And, "the Messiah shall make it DESOLATE" was fulfilled in Matthew 23:38. The rest of the week won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns and once again offers the Kingdom to a new generation who WILL accept Him as their King!

On 5/31/2024 at 2:46 PM, choir loft said:

HISTORY marks the time from 1938 to 1945 as the most troubling period Jews had ever known in all of history.  7 years. Deny it all you want.  Six million dead Jews will call you a liar.  85 million dead during WWII will do the same.  May they all haunt your waking and sleeping mind.

HISTORY also tells us about the persecutions the Jews faced under Rome and the Spanish Inquisitions, and the Russian Pogroms, and the Christian Crusades, and much more down through the last TWO THOUSAND YEARS! THE WHOLE THING was and STILL IS "the Tribulation!" They're not "out of the woods," yet! Just look at all the bombings they've suffered from Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, etc! Do you think the "tribulation" has already ended???!!! NOT A CHANCE!

Look at the timing in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:7-31 (KJV)

7 "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (All this TAKES TIME!) 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν = "then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure (he that survives) unto the end, the same shall be saved (rescued; delivered). 14 And this gospel of (good news about) the kingdom shall be preached (heralded) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (this happened in 66 A.D.), (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains (the mountains of Israel): 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house (take "the Road of the Rooftops" out of Jerusalem): 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight (to Pella on the east side of the Jordan) be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days (of tribulation WITHIN the time period) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake (the sake of the chosen ones of Israel) those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you,

"'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there [He is]'; believe it not. (Who would care more about the Messiah's coming than a Jew?) 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect ("Chosen Ones"). 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, he is in the desert'; GO NOT FORTH!: 'behold, he is in the secret chambers'; BELIEVE IT NOT! 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase (the carcass; dead body) is, there will the eagles (vultures) be gathered together!

29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (the sky): and THEN 'shall all the tribes of the earth (Land) mourn,' (Zechariah 12:10-14) and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (brightness). 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds (four compass directions), from one end (the lower end) of heaven to the other (the upper end)."

 

On 5/31/2024 at 2:46 PM, choir loft said:

Those that deny history, the prophets of Israel and Christ Himself are those who would rewrite everything for their own purpose.

What is that purpose?

To justify antisemitic hatred of Jews and to hope for ANOTHER bloodbath of innocent men women and children simply because they don't attend church.  Nazis love that sort of doctrine.

Such persons ought to be ashamed of themselves for wishing evil upon Jews.  God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse it.  The 1st church of Mephistopheles believes as you do.

Of such were the pharisees of Jesus' time.  They wouldn't admit what was going on either.   Such people will have their reward (John 3:19).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Sorry, bro'; you've got the WRONG IDEA of what I'm saying.

[JoeCanada]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:07 PM, Retrobyter said:

So, "the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many." What covenant is that? It's the DAVIDIC Covenant! The Davidic Covenant is what makes Yeeshuwa` the "Messiah!" (See 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17.) Just as His ancestor David was king over Judah for 7 years in Hebron, so the Messiah was to be Judah's King ("the King of the Jews") for 7 years, but the elders of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") would not accept Him as their King!

Can you please explain why Jesus would be King over Judah for ONLY 7 years?

[SACREDWARRIOR]

Hello ,

 The PRE WRATH position got its start in the early 1990's by a Man named Marvin Rosenthal who was influenced by his friend Robert Van Kampen, a wealthy businessman from Chicago...Marvin wrote a book called "THE PREWRATH RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH" and Robert Van Kampen wrote his compendium on the subject called "THE SIGN" and started a ministry called "THE SIGN MINISTRIES" .

 Over the next few years more books would be published, and the position began to take a foothold and  now is one of the top held beliefs.

 Its difference from what is typically known as mid trib, is that the rapture will occur at some unspecified time after the rise of the a/c which occurs at the mid point.

 I was fortunate to be an associate of Van Kampen and spent many hours under his personal teaching, I also knew Marvin Rosenthal, Charles Cooper, and others who were instrumental in the rise in popularity of the prewrath position....

 I have since drifted slightly away from the classic position as they taught it, but still hold to the basic concepts...WE WILL FACE THE A/C if we are alive at that time...which appears to be closing in quickly.

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!

Clarence

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, SACREDWARRIOR said:

Its difference from what is typically known as mid trib, is that the rapture will occur 1) at some unspecified time after the rise of the a/c which 2) occurs at the mid point.

Two presumptions here, neither of them proven or provable. They are based on older presumptions of the pre-trib doctrine and before. Pre-wrath has no need of them; but sadly, neither Rosenthal nor Van Kampen understood this, because they accepted these past traditions of men as correct, without thoroughly examining them.

1) There is to be no "the Antichrist." John specifically told us there will be "many antichrists." John 2:18 Jesus told us, "Many will come in my name..." Matt. 24:5 The one-man antichrist doctrine is a widely-believed but false teaching. See --

20. “The Antichrist” Myth

Debunks a number of false presumptions about “The Antichrist” that are taught in modern-day churches.    https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1150-the-antichrist-myth/

2) The whole teaching  about Daniel 9:27's 70th week taking place in the End Times is also a false doctrine of men, not the Scriptures. No NT scripture ever speaks about any 7-year period in the End Times. To expect and look for one will be a futile and misleading search. See --

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.   https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 46: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. https://worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

 

Edited June 6 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

Interesting stuff.

On 6/6/2024 at 1:44 PM, WilliamL said:

Two presumptions here, neither of them proven or provable. They are based on older presumptions of the pre-trib doctrine and before. Pre-wrath has no need of them; but sadly, neither Rosenthal nor Van Kampen understood this, because they accepted these past traditions of men as correct, without thoroughly examining them.

Oh, idk...the A of D seems to be the power grab, doesn't it? 2 Thess 2 sure seems to be the critical moment for the self promotion to godhood of someone Revelation calls the 'beast'. It seems to align quite well with Revelation 13 where we see the beast take power and receive authority over the world, and the worship of everyone not part of the elect. 

I see no issue with this attempted coup occurring at the midpoint, or thereabouts. Perhaps it does occur exactly so, perhaps not. There is no scriptural prohibition for this occurrence at that time, and in fact it can be deduced accurately from the scriptural evidence.

The Dispensationalists were wrong about several things, but not everything. 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 1:44 PM, WilliamL said:

1) There is to be no "the Antichrist." John specifically told us there will be "many antichrists." John 2:18 Jesus told us, "Many will come in my name..." Matt. 24:5 The one-man antichrist doctrine is a widely-believed but false teaching. See --

20. “The Antichrist” Myth

Debunks a number of false presumptions about “The Antichrist” that are taught in modern-day churches.    https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1150-the-antichrist-myth/

But that's not what John said. John didn't say, "There is no 'the antichrist'." John added that even then there were many antichrists. This isn't a subtraction factoring out a single individual rising to power opposing God and all that is called god, and him being the exemplar, the acme of antichristdom, above all others that are anti-christ. 

Being antichrist isn't a modern NT thing, there have always been antichrists and antichrist sentiment in people since the world began and people multiplied.

 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 1:44 PM, WilliamL said:

2) The whole teaching  about Daniel 9:27's 70th week taking place in the End Times is also a false doctrine of men, not the Scriptures. No NT scripture ever speaks about any 7-year period in the End Times. To expect and look for one will be a futile and misleading search. See --

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.   https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

I think it is very much in evidence if other factors are taken into consideration. I find the dynamic between the two witnesses and the beast, as well as the duration of the two witnesses ministry, to be compelling evidence for 84 months of the end of the age

As we see from Matt 24 we have a timeline fragment: the A of D, GT, then Jesus arrives. A decisive factor in that timeline is the duration of the GT. Jesus said, "if those days had not been cut short....but for the elects sake those days were cut short." Cut short of what? Obviously some predetermined duration. Is that predetermined duration the planned amount of days of GT or some other set length of time?

In my mind it must be some set in stone duration of time apart from the days of GT. Why? If it is cut short and there is no other duration then it's the end. It could only be cut short from a timeline that endures after the condition in question is arrested. 

Once GT is ended Jesus returns and the timeline continues, but now instead of GT, it's the wrath of the Lamb, still within a predetermined allotment of time.

The time the beast is given to hold power is 42 months, and that 42 months of power given to the beast is from the A of D onward. 2 Thess 2 is a clear indication the beast will reign after his godhood proclamation. Coupled with the warning of Jesus in Matt 24 about the A of D, I don't think that can be disputed in any meaningful way; the beasts reign is 42 months and it begins at the A of D. 

The kingdom of the beast endures the wrath of the Lamb as depicted in Rev 16. This means the time allotted to the beast is not over when GT ends. It's just about over, but not yet.

So it's now obvious that the 42 months of the beast's reign has within it both GT and God's wrath. 

Since no believer will endure God's wrath the two witnesses cannot have a 42 month ministry all within the same 42 months of the beast's reign since part of the reign of the beast is his kingdom enduring God's wrath.

This alone pushes the ministry of the two witnesses back before the A of D several months, or perhaps even a year or more.

It's doubtful the beast will allow the two witnesses to operate after the beast takes power. In Rev 13...

5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. {a match with 2 Thess 2}

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast

Since that prophecy is global barring any exception, that would mean the beast has power over the two witnesses as well. Once the beast takes power the two witnesses are killed after the completion of their 42 months. I'm convinced this occurs moments after the beast is granted power and authority. Why? Well, the two witnesses tormented the world for 42 months. In a show of power the beast takes out the scourge pestering the whole world in his first major action of full blown rebellion, demonstrating the power he now has.

I don't see the beast sharing his authority for any length of time after being granted such immense power and authority. But let's say he does just let the two witnesses continue. The issue with the two witnesses not enduring God's wrath is still valid. This alone pushes the time of the two witnesses to back before the beast is granted domination of the entire world and all the people. Even if the two witnesses do continue within the beast's reign and GT, they still must be taken up before wrath, placing their ministry partially outside the final 42 months. 

The idea the beast will not tolerate a rival power then pushes the two witnesses ministry back a full 42 months before the beast takes power. That means there are two distinct time periods at the end of the age, each of 42 months duration, distinguished by the ministry of the two witnesses and the reign of the beast, with no overlap more than maybe hours.

Even if one can discount the Daniel the prophecies showing 7 years and a midpoint[in my mind one cannot], it's impossible to reconcile the beast's reign and the ministry of the two witnesses without two distinct and separate time periods each of 42 months duration. 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

2 Thes. 2 sure seems to be the critical moment for the self promotion to godhood of someone Revelation calls the 'beast'. 

But it isn't; it is about the Son of Perdition, who verse 8 tells us comes to his end at the Parousia; which event is post-trib, pre-wrath. Whereas the Beast does not ascend from the Abyss until that Wrath has already commenced.

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

But that's not what John said. John didn't say, "There is no 'the antichrist'." John added that even then there were many antichrists.

The word "the" is called the definite article for a reason: it denotes "a particular person or thing." So by definition there can only be ONE of them, not many of them (in the case here, antichrists), as both John and Jesus said there would be.