Significant Dates: 2 The Global Government.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

You seemed to think that Dan. 9 : 26 was `in` the 69th week, when actually it is `after.` I will thus write some details for you, plus some concerning God`s purpose.

`70 weeks (x 7) have been decreed for your people & your holy city to finish the transgression (National rebellion against God), to make atonement for iniquity……& to anoint the most holy place.

So you are to know & discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be 7 weeks (7 x 7 years) & 62 weeks (62 x 7 years)…..

Then after the 62 weeks (62 x 7 years) the Messiah will be cut off & have nothing, & the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city & the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week (7 years) But in the middle he will put a stop to sacrifice & grain offering;…` (Dan. 9: 24 – 27)

 

 

Here is a diagram of the 69 weeks ( of 7 years).


……….I……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………........I…….X….
…..Mar. 5, 444 BC………7 weeks……I……62 weeks………………………………….....................Mar. 30, 33 AD (after)
…..Edict……………………69 weeks (483 / 476 + 25 days)……………………………...................Messiah the Prince.


538 B.C. Daniel`s Prophecy. (Dan. 9: 24 – 27)
Mar. 5, 444 BC – Nehemiah 2: 1 – 8 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem & Temple.
Mar. 30, 33 AD Palm Sunday. Zechariah 9: 9 & Luke 19: 29 – 44 The Messiah appears as Prince.


(7 & 62 = 69 weeks (x7 years) = 483 yrs. Sabbatical years)
(Prophetic years = 483 yrs x 360 days)
(Calendar years = 476 x 365 . 242 + 25 days)


God`s Purpose

We can read from Dan. 9: 24 that God is telling Daniel what will happen concerning God`s dealing with Israel – the people & the sanctuary (to anoint the most holy place which will be desecrated.) God tells Daniel that the Messiah the Prince will come & then there will come another prince / leader who although he will make a covenant, he will break it & cause the sacrifices to cease.

Now God has already told Daniel concerning this leader that will arise –

`A king will arise insolent & skilled in intrigue, & his power will be mighty but not by his own power. And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree & prosper & perform his will; he will destroy mighty men & the holy people, & through his shrewdness he will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; & he will magnify himself in his heart, & he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes.` (Dan. 8: 23 – 26)

Thus we see in the next chapter of Daniel, (9) Messiah the Prince & the prince to come. Further on in Daniel 11 God shows Daniel from which region this leader (despicable person) comes from.

`And in his place a despicable person will arise…..the king will do as he pleases, & he will exalt & magnify himself above every god, & will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; & he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.` (Dan. 11: 21, 36)

We see further in Daniel 11 that this prince/king is called the King of the north. This is the area of Ancient Assyria – Iraq, Syria & Jordan. This puts it right in the Islamic Region.

 

 

Marilyn.


 

Edited November 23, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=====================================================================================================================

 

 

You seemed to think that Dan. 9 : 26 was `in` the 69th week, when actually it is `after.` I will thus write some details for you, plus some concerning God`s purpose.

 

`70 weeks (x 7) have been decreed for your people & your holy city to finish the transgression (National rebellion against God), to make atonement for iniquity……& to anoint the most holy place.

 

So you are to know & discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore & rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be 7 weeks (7 x 7 years) & 62 weeks (62 x 7 years)…..

Then after the 62 weeks (62 x 7 years) the Messiah will be cut off & have nothing, & the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city & the sanctuary. 

 

 

 

Yes you are correct, I was mistaken with the 69th Week.  However, it has no bearing on the issue.  Dan 9:26 is after the 69th Week BUT before the 70th Week (Dan 9:27).

 

 

538 B.C. Daniel`s Prophecy. (Dan. 9: 24 – 27)

Mar. 5, 444 BC – Nehemiah 2: 1 – 8 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives edict to rebuild Jerusalem & Temple.

Mar. 30, 33 AD Palm Sunday. Zechariah 9: 9 & Luke 19: 29 – 44 The Messiah appears as Prince.

(7 & 62 = 69 weeks (x7 years) = 483 yrs. Sabbatical years)

(Prophetic years = 483 yrs x 360 days)

(Calendar years = 476 x 365 . 242 + 25 days)

 

 

You're close....but not quite:

 

There are 3 other dates proposed due to "Commands/Decrees" to Rebuild....and you know what they "ALL" have in Common?  They all speak to the "Temple" being rebuilt---- Not the City.

1. Cyrus, 537 BC   Ezra 1: 2-4

2. Darius, Ezra 6:1-5, 8:12

3. Artaxerxes, 448 BC  Ezra 7:11-20

** 4. Artaxerxes, 445 BC  Neh 2:5-8, 17,18 (This is the only one of the 4 that Specifically deal with the CITY of Jerusalem.  GOD is very Precise

What does Gabriel tell Daniel, Specifically: The commandment to Restore an build "Jerusalem"...."The Street" and "The Wall" (chartus = "wall, moat")  for further Emphasis.

There's only 1 Commandment for that....Artaxerses Longimanus 14 March, 445 BC (SEE: Sir Robert Anderson, The Coming Prince).  Sir Robert Anderson was Knighted and the Head of Scotland Yard...the Date is Certifiable!

 

 

These are Seventy Weeks of years.  We in our current time are in the interval between the 69th and 70th week.

 

(Daniel 9:25) "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." 

 

Verse 25 is astounding because the Angel Gabriel is predicting when Jesus will ride into Jerusalem and pronounce his Kingship the first time.   Which just happened to be April 6, 32 AD. 

Lets see how accurate Gabriel was with his message 500 years before it happened... just in case you're wondering about the 360 day year below, that's the way all Calendars were constructed in those days.  Lets continue:  "seven weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks" = 69 weeks

 

69 (weeks) x 7 (days in a week) x 360 days= 173,880 days (From the Decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus Triumphal Entry)

 

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was ordered by Artaxerses Longimanus 14 March, 445 BC (SEE: Sir Robert Anderson, The Coming Prince).  From 445 BC to 32 AD is 173,740 days.  March 14 to April 6th is 24 days.  So that gives us 173,764 days.  Shocking how close it was....Prophecy 173,880, reality 173,764.  GOD was close, good try.....ah but wait   What did we forget....LEAP YEAR DAYS!!  How many, well that would be exactly 116 days.  so 173,764 days + 116 days =

173,880 Days!!!

 

What was Gabriel's margin of error?? ......  = ZERO!!

 

 

And something very sobering regarding this Prophecy:  Why was Jerusalem destroyed in 70AD?   .....

 

(Luke 19:41-44) "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,  {42} Saying,  If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.  {43}  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,  {44}  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." 

 

Jesus held them accountable to know the day.  How would they "Know It"?.....Dan 9:25.  Gives a whole new meaning to Bible Study.

 

And connected to our discussion concerning ROME and Titus Vespasian..... Because Titus' Father had to return to Rome---- due to the Empire in shambles post Nero's Death, there was a 9 month Hiatus in the attack on Jerusalem.  The Christians that took heed to Jesus' warning above and saw (the armies "Compass thee round")..... got out of Dodge and fled to Pella.  

 

 

`A king will arise insolent & skilled in intrigue, & his power will be mighty but not by his own power. And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree & prosper & perform his will; he will destroy mighty men & the holy people, & through his shrewdness he will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; & he will magnify himself in his heart, & he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes.` (Dan. 8: 23 – 26)

 

 

We've already been through this.

 

 

We see further in Daniel 11 that this prince/king is called the King of the north. This is the area of Ancient Assyria – Iraq, Syria & Jordan. This puts it right in the Islamic Region.

 

 

And Again, As I have already said concerning Daniel 8..... there is "Crossover" between Antiochus Epiphanes (The First Abomination of Desolation) and the ac (The last Abomination of Desolation).  I also said, in that same discussion, this "Crossover" occurs in...... Dan 11.

 

The Majority of Chapter 11 is describing the struggles between the Ptolemaic Empire (The King of the South) vs The Seleucid Empire (The King of The North)....who's stuck in the middle of these struggles??.....Israel.  (See Below)

 

The King of the North in Daniel 11 is......Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire (Which was NORTH of the Ptolemaic Empire) with Israel Sandwiched in the Middle.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

We do agree on the important thing & that is as you said `God is very precise.` We both used reputable historians, the Sabbatical years (360) plus the leap years. Now even though we are different in dates, the time factor is the same, & we so agree that God showed the exact day for the Messiah the Prince to be hailed as King. (Zech. 9: 9 & Luke 19: 29 - 44)

 

Blessings Marilyn.  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

It seems to me you are all mixed up concerning `the heads & the horns.` (post #86) So let`s have a closer look at them on the beast first.

 

The Beast – The Final Gentile Global Government. (Rev. 13)

`And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having 10 horns & 7 heads, & on his horns were 10 diadems….& the beast ….was like a leopard….a bear….&…a lion.` (Rev. 13: 1 & 2)

7 Heads – 7 consecutive leaders. (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th A/C ) Leading the Global Gov.
10 Horns (crowned) – Federation of 10 kings (Political Power) Controlling the Global Gov.
Lion, Leopard & Bear – The rest of the world`s power blocs being dominated.


The 7 Heads: 7 consecutive leaders.

`the 7 heads ….are 7 kings/leaders; 5 have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; & when he comes, he must remain a little while. And the beast which was & is not, is himself also the 8th, & is one of the 7, & he goes to destruction.` (Rev. 17: 9 – 11)

This clearly shows us that these are 7 consecutive leaders of the Global Government. The time period shown there is in the first part of Daniel`s 70th week as the 7th, the anti-Christ has not yet taken leadership. The 8th is Satan, (a parody of Christ) who possesses the anti-Christ, thus making himself, `one of the 7.`


The 10 Horns: The 10 nation Federation.

These we see are `The ten toes - the 10 Horns - the 10 kings.` (Dan. 2: 41, 7: 7, Rev. 13 : 2,  17: 12)

`the 10 horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.` (Rev. 17: 12)

Thus we see that each of these kings, represented by the horns are over a kingdom, a country. And together they form a Federation for a short time under the rulership of the anti-Christ for a short time – 3 ½ years. (Rev. 13: 5)

`These have one purpose & they give their power & authority to the beast.` (leader – A/C) (Rev. 17: 13)



Daniel gives us more detail concerning this Federation of 10 kings (horns).

`(beast)…had 10 horns ….& another horn, a little one, came up from among them, & 3 of the first horns were pulled up by the roots..` (Dan. 7: 7 & 8)

`…as for the 10 horns, out of this kingdom 10 kings will arise; & another will arise after them, & he will be different from the previous ones & will subdue 3 kings.` (Dan. 7: 24)

Here we see where the anti-Christ comes from, amongst the 10 horns. He is a part of this forming Federation. Three leaders (horns) give over their authority to him, & this becomes his regional power base. From this regional power base of 3 kings the anti-Christ rises to become leader of the 10 king Federation, till finally he is the 7th leader of the Global Government.

Thus we see the anti-Christ arise in Political power (horn) from a region that eventually comes together under his leadership to form a Federation of 10 kings. Because he rules over them all & the world, he is then shown as the 7th head. The `horns` are the region he comes from (among them) & the `head` shows his position over all.


7th Head – Anti-Christ.
10 Kings – Islamic Federation.
`Lion, Leopard & Bear,` - symbolic of power blocs of the world.

 

 

Marilyn.
 

Edited November 24, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

It seems to me you are all mixed up concerning `the heads & the horns.` (post #86) So let`s have a closer look at them on the beast first.

 

The Beast – The Final Gentile Global Government. (Rev. 13)

`And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having 10 horns & 7 heads, & on his horns were 10 diadems….& the beast ….was like a leopard….a bear….&…a lion.` (Rev. 13: 1 & 2)

7 Heads – 7 consecutive leaders. (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th A/C ) Leading the Global Gov.

10 Horns (crowned) – Federation of 10 kings (Political Power) Controlling the Global Gov.

Lion, Leopard & Bear – The rest of the world`s power blocs being dominated.

The 7 Heads: 7 consecutive leaders.

`the 7 heads ….are 7 kings/leaders; 5 have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; & when he comes, he must remain a little while. And the beast which was & is not, is himself also the 8th, & is one of the 7, & he goes to destruction.` (Rev. 17: 9 – 11)

This clearly shows us that these are 7 consecutive leaders of the Global Government. The time period shown there is in the first part of Daniel`s 70th week as the 7th, the anti-Christ has not yet taken leadership. The 8th is Satan, (a parody of Christ) who possesses the anti-Christ, thus making himself, `one of the 7.`

The 10 Horns: The 10 nation Federation.

These we see are `The ten toes - the 10 Horns - the 10 kings.` (Dan. 2: 41, 7: 7, Rev. 13 : 2,  17: 12)

`the 10 horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.` (Rev. 17: 12)

Thus we see that each of these kings, represented by the horns are over a kingdom, a country. And together they form a Federation for a short time under the rulership of the anti-Christ for a short time – 3 ½ years. (Rev. 13: 5)

`These have one purpose & they give their power & authority to the beast.` (leader – A/C) (Rev. 17: 13)

Daniel gives us more detail concerning this Federation of 10 kings (horns).

`(beast)…had 10 horns ….& another horn, a little one, came up from among them, & 3 of the first horns were pulled up by the roots..` (Dan. 7: 7 & 8)

`…as for the 10 horns, out of this kingdom 10 kings will arise; & another will arise after them, & he will be different from the previous ones & will subdue 3 kings.` (Dan. 7: 24)

Here we see where the anti-Christ comes from, amongst the 10 horns. He is a part of this forming Federation. Three leaders (horns) give over their authority to him, & this becomes his regional power base. From this regional power base of 3 kings the anti-Christ rises to become leader of the 10 king Federation, till finally he is the 7th leader of the Global Government.

Thus we see the anti-Christ arise in Political power (horn) from a region that eventually comes together under his leadership to form a Federation of 10 kings. Because he rules over them all & the world, he is then shown as the 7th head. The `horns` are the region he comes from (among them) & the `head` shows his position over all.

7th Head – Anti-Christ.

10 Kings – Islamic Federation.

`Lion, Leopard & Bear,` - symbolic of power blocs of the world.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

=====================================================================================================================

 

 

It seems to me you are all mixed up concerning `the heads & the horns.` (post #86) So let`s have a closer look at them on the beast first.

 

The Beast – The Final Gentile Global Government. (Rev. 13)

 

`And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having 10 horns & 7 heads, & on his horns were 10 diadems….& the beast ….was like a leopard….a bear….&…a lion.` (Rev. 13: 1 & 2)

1.  7 Heads – 7 consecutive leaders. (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th A/C ) Leading the Global Gov.

2. 10 Horns (crowned) – Federation of 10 kings (Political Power) Controlling the Global Gov.

3.  Lion, Leopard & Bear – The rest of the world`s power blocs being dominated.

 

 

 

I don't think so.

 

1. They are Seven World Empires not just leaders that HAVE LED (except for the last one) Seven World Empires as I have depicted.

 

2.  The 10 Horns are 10 Kings in the final empire......BUT: 

 

(Daniel 7:8) "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

10 Horns, then another "little horn" came up = 11 Horns , then 3 were "Plucked Up" = 8 Horns.  The ac is the 8th Horn, "little horn" of this Final Kingdom.

 

Dovetails with....(Revelation 17:11) "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

 

But he comes from among one of the previous 7 Empires.....Assyria ( as I have shown).

 

 

Lion, Leopard & Bear – The rest of the world`s power blocs being dominated.

 

 

These are already History and are clearly: Babylon (Lion), Bear (Medo-Persia), and the Leopard (Greece).  Interestingly..... John, when recalling these gives them in Reverse Order that Daniel gave....

 

(Revelation 13:2) "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

 

Daniel Chapter 7:  Lion, Bear, then Leopard.  Why? Daniel's perspective is looking towards the Future; whereas John, was looking back.

 

It tells you right here that those Kingdoms were past:  (Revelation 17:10) "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

 

The other 2 (Besides Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) were Assyria, and Egypt.  The "One IS" is ROME from John's Perspective, "and "the other" is not yet come"....the Future Final Kingdom.

 

`the 7 heads ….are 7 kings/leaders; 5 have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; & when he comes, he must remain a little while. And the beast which was & is not, is himself also the 8th, & is one of the 7, & he goes to destruction.` (Rev. 17: 9 – 11)

 

This clearly shows us that these are 7 consecutive leaders of the Global Government.

 

 

It doesn't say anything of the sort.

 

Define what you mean by "consecutive"?  Where'd you get "of the Global Government" from...?

 

These we see are `The ten toes - the 10 Horns - the 10 kings.` (Dan. 2: 41, 7: 7, Rev. 13 : 2,  17: 12)

 

`the 10 horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.` (Rev. 17: 12)

Thus we see that each of these kings, represented by the horns are over a kingdom, a country. And together they form a Federation for a short time under the rulership of the anti-Christ for a short time – 3 ½ years. (Rev. 13: 5)

 

`These have one purpose & they give their power & authority to the beast.` (leader – A/C) (Rev. 17: 13)

 

 

Yes kinda, except for 3 of them are "Plucked Up". 

 

`…as for the 10 horns, out of this kingdom 10 kings will arise; & another will arise after them, & he will be different from the previous ones & will subdue 3 kings.` (Dan. 7: 24)

Here we see where the anti-Christ comes from, amongst the 10 horns. He is a part of this forming Federation.

 

1. Three leaders (horns) give over their authority to him, & this becomes his regional power base.

 

2. From this regional power base of 3 kings the anti-Christ rises to become leader of the 10 king Federation, till finally he is the 7th leader of the Global Government.

 

 

1.  "Subdue" doesn't mean those 3 will give it to him....it means the ac will KILL them.  In an earlier verse it states... 

 

(Daniel 7:8) "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

Then we see what "Plucked up by the roots" actually means, here....

 

(Jude 1:12) "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

 

And there is nothing whatsoever that even implies... much less says, this will be the ac's power base.

 

*** Be careful with "Artistic License"

 

2. And then from "your" erroneous extrapolation (SEE #1 above) you head off the reservation with this.

 

 

Thus we see the anti-Christ arise in Political power (horn) from a region that eventually comes together under his leadership to form a Federation of 10 kings. Because he rules over them all & the world, he is then shown as the 7th head. The `horns` are the region he comes from (among them) & the `head` shows his position over all.

 

 

"Thus"?  When you Extrapolate from an error (SEE above:  #1, #2, and Artistic License) , everything downstream is....erroneous.

 

 

1. 7th Head – Anti-Christ.

2. 10 Kings – Islamic Federation.

3. `Lion, Leopard & Bear,` - symbolic of power blocs of the world.

 

 

1. How on Earth can he be the 7th Head when it says right here....(Revelation 17:11) "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

 

It says he (ac) is "of the seven"....but he (ac), is the______??

 

2. What on Earth is this?  The Infamous "Islamic Federation", eh?  This shows up incoherently with out even a wisp of Vapor for Support.  (SEE: "Artistic Licence" above)

 

3. These are Symbolic for PAST World Empires, ....

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Overall, you need to meditate on this... then in the future, avoid it,  Strawman Fallacy:  The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

You've conjured this "Guilty" concept from thin air then go on and on about it.....for the last time:  It's Irrelevant!!!

 

 

Buy your logic if a regiment breaks army command and rank....The army is guilty not the regiment?

 

 

If my Commander gives me an Order for my regiment to secure a bridge but instead of securing it my Soldiers destroy the Bridge.... I may not be "GUILTY".....BUT, I AM ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE for it happened under MY WATCH/COMMAND.  My Commander is not gonna ask to speak to Joe Snuffy with the c4 and the blasting cap. lol

 

 

So when God gave Adam and Eve an order not to eat of the tree of knowledge...God is guilty because Adam and Eve disobeyed an order? After all God was in charge right?

 

 

What on Earth is this?  This is what happens when you're reduced to irrelevant force analogies.

 

GOD was not Adam and Eve's COMMANDER...in a Military Sense as our context. Adam and Eve had "Free Will" they are both "GUILTY" for DIRECTLY disobeying.  And there is nobody above GOD so HE can't be accountable.

 

In my above example with my regiment.....I'm personally "NOT GUILTY" of blowing up the bridge, I didn't disobey, DIRECTLY; HOWEVER, I am..... Accountable due to my station.

 

I think you're having a difficult time discerning between Accountable and Guilty.  Drop the Guilty nonsense (Strawman) that you conjured and everything falls into place.

 

 

What I find fascinating is your passion on history, after all you have posted pictures of ancient empires, gave us in depth resources on "Commands/Decrees" to Rebuild the temple and and and yet anything that goes against your Roman theory is hearsay and irrelevant....

 

 

Baseless "all encompassing" Generalized Assertion (Fallacy).

 

 

Rome was in charge irrespective whither a legion breaks command or not Rome is in Charge of a renegade legion and Rome is in charge

 

 

Yep that's right.  Because in this particular case, It satisfies this....

 

(Daniel 9:26) "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

 

And that's all.  This isn't the Nuremberg Trials:

 

Who's the "prince"?----Titus Vespasian (ROMAN)

 

Who's the people? ------The 5th, 10th, 12th, 15th Roman Legions.

 

What happened?----- The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD.

 

The Prosecution Rests!  

 

It is relevant, it will always be relevant to find out who the guilty party is and who the innocent party is.....how else does one know righteous from unrighteous?

 

 

 

See the bible calls for TWO EYEWITNESS'S

Roman historian Tacitus:-

The Roman commanders, led by Titus, conferred on the Mount of Olives on the eve of the fall of Jerusalem. The main item on the agenda was a question, the answer to which would have been self-understood in a campaign in any part of the world: should they destroy the Temple or not? It was accepted Roman policy all sources of power, including spiritual, of a rebellious province, and in this case the Temple was the focus of both temporal and spiritual Jewish independence. Titus however, felt that it would not be wise to devastate this architectual gem - after all, the Romans were not Barbarians!

Josephus

"Titus supposing what the fact was, that the house itself might yet he saved, he came in haste and endeavored to persuade the soldiers to quench the fire…yet were their passions too hard for the regards they had for Caesar, and the dread they had of him who forbade them, as was their hatred of the Jews, and a certain vehement inclination to fight them, too hard for them also…And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar’s approbation" (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 4).

I have two witness's one Jewish the other Roman historians who are reliable and credible of the events that took place...a Military order was given not to destroy the Temple....further Rome tried to save the destruction of the Temple....Roman actions proves without a doubt that it is a historical fact Rome did not destroy the Temple... The guilty party lies with a renegade legion who broke rank and command.

This is not hearsay or irrelevant, it is never irrelevant to seek truth. Your logic and conclusions are purely based on subjective reasoning and opinions, you offer no historical proof to refute what I have provided, nor will you be able to.

 

 

Here's your problem and renders everything downstream Painfully Irrelevant....how else does one know righteous from unrighteous?  This is your Strawman (Fallacy) IN TOTO.  

 

It's the Wrong Question.  What are we "Measuring" here?? ....

 

Where does it say who is Righteous or Unrighteous or whether it should be judged that way??....

 

(Daniel 9:26) "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

 

Anywhere? .... Nope.  In other words, you have no case....you conjured it; Ergo....Strawman (Fallacy).

 

 

Since you were in charge of 50 soldiers where did YOU get your orders from?

 

So if you attacked a certain building against your commanders decisions and broke rank....Your commanders are guilty and not you?... since you acknowledge your own authority over your platoon?

 

 

See above scenario: (Bridge) and this "Guilty" issue.

 

 

It does not follow that a “coming prince” is a “future prince.”

 

 

Meditate on this statement for a few minutes?  

 

As for the rest...

You'll have to find somebody else to play word games, with The Plain WORD of GOD.  You have the wrong guy.  Either provide actual substance to refute or we are done here.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

You have many errors of thinking, friend. Let me explain carefully to you.

Error 1. Adding to scripture.

God`s word does not say that the 7 Heads/kings are `empires.` It just says they are kings/leaders.
`…the 7 heads are….7 kings;..` (Rev. 17: 10) No mention there or anywhere that they individually are empires. You have `added` that part & then speculated what those empires would be. You even called them `Satan`s Seven Super Kingdoms.` This doesn`t even make sense as Satan controls all the world & there have been many `super kingdoms.`


Error 2. Misinterpretation of scripture.

The 3 horns.

Horns here refer to the political power & to the leader. This can be seen from the context - `kings,` & `kingdoms` (Dan. 7: 17 & 23) The context tells us which it is referring to.

`3 of the horns were plucked up by the roots..` (Dan. 7: 8) The word `plucked up – Heb. `aqar,` means to pluck up by the roots. Here we see that the `horns` the political powers are plucked up. The countries/kingdoms are still there but now they are operating under the anti-Christ.

`he…will subdue 3 kings.` (Dan. 7: 24) The word `subdue` - Heb. `shephal,` means to `abase, humble.` Obviously that is what it says is happening to the 3 kings, they are humbled under the great leader. Thus it does not say `kill` them as you said.

The 10 horns.

`..the 10 horns …are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast..` (Rev. 17: 12)

These are 10 leaders who will rule with the anti-Christ for 3 ½ years. We see that 3 have humbled themselves under his rulership but it is not till the time of the Great Tribulation that all the 10 kings/leaders come under his rule & together they rule the world.

You got muddled up & mixed up the 7 (people) & 10 (groups & people) & ended up with only an 8 king rulership with the anti-Christ, whereas God`s word clearly says a10 king Federation.


(Note Satan is the 8th leader who possesses the 7th leader & then rules over the 10 king Federation. Rev. 17: 11)


As regard to the diagram of the Great Image Enoch. The more you post it the more people will say –“Yes we see the history, but where is this Rome 2? Why doesn`t Enoch talk about what is happening now? Why always the past & some vague future? Doesn`t he know about contemporary events?”

So ask anyone Enoch, `Which do you think this final Gentile Global Government is – the European Union or Islam?

`…this kingdom…will devour the whole earth & tread it down & crush it.` (Dan. 7: 23)

Marilyn.
 

Edited November 24, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

==========================================================================================

 

Really, Lets see....

 

 

Error 1. Adding to scripture.

 

 

A Charge from the "Adding to Scripture" Queen.  As Evidenced By just a cursory review of your posts (Including this one) on this and other threads.  As a matter of fact, I can't recall a post where you didn't.

 

Pot meet Kettle ....  

 

 

God`s word does not say that the 7 Heads/kings are `empires.` It just says they are kings/leaders.

`…the 7 heads are….7 kings;..` (Rev. 17: 10) No mention there or anywhere that they individually are empires. You have `added` that part & then speculated what those empires would be. You even called them `Satan`s Seven Super Kingdoms.` This doesn`t even make sense as Satan controls all the world & there have been many `super kingdoms.`

 

 

Marilyn.....Heads/Mountains---are KINGDOMS throughout Scripture.    Kings/Kingdoms are used Interchangeably throughout Scripture.  "Horns" speak to KINGS Specifically.

 

In the Bible, there are 7 "World" Empires Spoken of (this is first week Eschatology):

 

In Genesis.......Assyria and Egypt.

 

In Daniel: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome (Iron), And the Final Secular Kingdom Iron mixed with Miry Clay (Ten Toes) and the (Ten Horns).

 

How many "HEADS" does the great red dragon have.........Seven:

 

(Revelation 12:3) "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

 

 

I've added nothing.  And have sent, yet again, Your Baseless "erroneous" Assertion (Fallacy) to the Wood-Chipper.

 

Error 2. Misinterpretation of scripture.

 

The 3 horns.

 

1.  Horns here refer to the political power & to the leader. This can be seen from the context - `kings,` & `kingdoms` (Dan. 7: 17 & 23) The context tells us which it is referring to.

 

2.  `3 of the horns were plucked up by the roots..` (Dan. 7: 8) The word `plucked up – Heb. `aqar,` means to pluck up by the roots. Here we see that the `horns` the political powers are plucked up.

 

2a. The countries/kingdoms are still there but now they are operating under the anti-Christ.

 

3.  `he…will subdue 3 kings.` (Dan. 7: 24) The word `subdue` - Heb. `shephal,` means to `abase, humble.` Obviously that is what it says is happening to the 3 kings, they are humbled under the great leader. Thus it does not say `kill` them as you said.

 

 

And again....

 

1. Strawman (Fallacy)---- That's what I said they were: "Horns" mean Kings, Specifically.

 

2.  Yes, it does. Comparing Scripture with Scripture for the Phrase: "Plucked up by the Roots", as I've shown you...

 

(Jude 1:12) "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;"

 

2a. Strawman (Fallacy).  I never said anything different.  You said that they were satan's power base.  "You" conjured this from Vapor; ERGO...adding to Scripture.

 

3.  Yes, it does.  It also doesn't Preclude them from being killed; SEE: "plucked up by the roots".

 

 

The 10 horns.

 

1. `..the 10 horns …are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast..` (Rev. 17: 12)

 

2.  These are 10 leaders who will rule with the anti-Christ for 3 ½ years.

 

3.  We see that 3 have humbled themselves under his rulership but it is not till the time of the Great Tribulation that all the 10 kings/leaders come under his rule & together they rule the world.

 

4.  You got muddled up & mixed up the 7 (people) & 10 (groups & people) & ended up with only an 8 king rulership with the anti-Christ, whereas God`s word clearly says a10 king Federation.

 

 

1.  Correct

 

2. 10 initially, but 3 are killed.

 

3.  3 are killed, SEE: "Plucked up by the roots".  Daniel expands on these Kings.... 

 

(Daniel 7:8) "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

 

"Ten Horns" = 10 Kings;  came up another "little horn" (the ac) =  11 Total; then, "three of the first horns plucked up by the roots"...... 11 - 3 = 8 ,<----the ac

 

Then Revelation confirms....(Revelation 17:11) "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."<------ the ac.

 

Let me show you where "You" are getting confused and this goes back to where I said:

 

Heads/Mountains---are KINGDOMS throughout Scripture.    Kings/Kingdoms are used Interchangeably throughout Scripture.  "Horns" speak to KINGS Specifically.

 

Revelation 17:11 says: .... "even he is the eighth, and is of the seven."  What is "of the seven"?  Kings? I thought there were 10 Kings...?  Or are those seven-----KINGDOMS?  They are Kingdoms....

 

Remember, "Heads/Mountains" are KINGDOMS....

 

(Revelation 17:9-11) "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  {10} And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.  {11} And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

 

 

** These passages have sent many a Bible Scholar to the medicine cabinet.  If you don't have a "Legend".....

 

Heads/Mountains---are KINGDOMS throughout Scripture.    Kings/Kingdoms are used Interchangeably throughout Scripture.  "Horns" speak to KINGS Specifically.

 

.....it will turn into a convoluted mess.  Make sense? 

 

4.  Hardly.  Not after what I just shown you.

 

 

(Note Satan is the 8th leader who possesses the 7th leader & then rules over the 10 king Federation. Rev. 17: 11)

 

 

Say What??? Oh no darlin....you're gonna have to provide "Specific" Exegesis of Rev 17:11....not just post the Book/Chapter/Verse, to Support this Baseless Assertion.

 

Go ahead.......?

 

 

As regard to the diagram of the Great Image Enoch. The more you post it the more people will say –“Yes we see the history, but where is this Rome 2?

 

 

People will say?  What People?  Names and Contact Info please....?  And how do you know what they will say?

 

“Yes we see the history, but where is this Rome 2"  -----  If they can fog a mirror, they'll say.....EUROPE.

 

 

Why doesn`t Enoch talk about what is happening now?

 

 

Because they know I don't attend "the Church..... of what's happening now".  I filter my Hermeneutics through Scripture not Headlines or Current Events.

 

I wonder how many people were "contriving" and "shoe-horning" scenarios into Scripture during WW1 and WW2....the greatest wars the world has ever seen.  Tell me something love, can you show me where WW1 or WW2 is in Scripture.....?

 

The Prosecution Rests.

 

So ask anyone Enoch, `Which do you think this final Gentile Global Government is – the European Union or Islam?

 

 

Islam??  Where in Scripture do you find "Islam" in relation to the end times/Revelation/"great tribulation".  Answer.....Absolutely Nowhere

 

I find them in Psalm 83, however. 

 

The "Iron"..... ROME, is the Final World Empire from Scripture.

[WilliamL]

After much research over the years, here is my take on Dan. 9:26-27:

 

9:26 And after the 62 weeks/sevens [of years], Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.
 

[i believe most of us agree that this was fulfilled at the Crucifixion. Achary/"after" can mean "at the very end of.]

And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.
 

[The coming ruler was Vespasian, the commanding Roman general, then emperor, during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. “His people” destroyed and desolated Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D.; however, it was done in fulfillment of his policy and orders. Rebel Zealots and Idumeans also caused widespread desolations in the war, both in Jerusalem and throughout the Judean countryside.
Jesus prophesied about these events, and when and how they would take place:

Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Jesus thus decreed a desolation upon the “house” of the apostatizing Jewish establishment, probably meaning both their lineage and their Temple. (Therefore, the argument remains about whether the Messiah is the one that caused the desolations, or Vespasian. But regardless, the result was the same.)
Luke 19:43-44: “For the days shall come upon you [Jerusalem], that your enemies will build an embankment around you, and surround you and close you in on every side, and shall level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”]

9:27 And he will have caused to make strong/to prevail/to confirm [a] covenant for many one week [of years].
[“…he will have caused”: 3 masc. sing. Hiphil Perfect. This was Vespasian’s policy, which he established from the beginning of the war: for those Jews who would continue to submit to Rome’s civil authority, Rome would continue to maintain the peace and permit the Jews to allow only YHWH-worship in the land. But any place in the land that harbored rebellion against Rome, including Jerusalem and Temple, would be desolated.

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.” III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…” III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

And in the midst of the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and offering. And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural], even until the consummation decreed is poured upon the desolate.

[in 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” –- no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel –- the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1. The utter desolation by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the desolation of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73.]

Thus, Daniel 9:24-27 provides an accurate summary of events in Judea from the First Coming of the Messiah up to the destruction of the Temple. It doesn’t mention at all
– any abomination of desolation of the Holy Place;
– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;
– the Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was;
– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;
– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;
– the coming prince’s demise;
– or the raising of the dead.
These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why none of them here? Because this is not a prophecy for the end of Church Age, but rather for the Jewish Age.

There is no scripture that prophesies the rebuilding of the Temple prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah in the clouds.
There is no scripture that says Jerusalem will be destroyed in the End Times.
There is no scripture that specifically speaks of a 7-year period in the End Times.

 

The full article, which covers all of verses 24-27, can be found here: 

http://joelstrumpet.freeforums.org/daniel-9-24-27-s-70th-week-when-fulfilled-t2492.html

[Enoch2021]

After much research over the years, here is my take on Dan. 9:26-27:

 

9:26 And after the 62 weeks/sevens [of years], Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.

 

[i believe most of us agree that this was fulfilled at the Crucifixion. Achary/"after" can mean "at the very end of."]

And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

 

[The coming ruler was Vespasian, the commanding Roman general, then emperor, during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. “His people” destroyed and desolated Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D.; however, it was done in fulfillment of his policy and orders. Rebel Zealots and Idumeans also caused widespread desolations in the war, both in Jerusalem and throughout the Judean countryside.

Jesus prophesied about these events, and when and how they would take place:

Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Jesus thus decreed a desolation upon the “house” of the apostatizing Jewish establishment, probably meaning both their lineage and their Temple. (Therefore, the argument remains about whether the Messiah is the one that caused the desolations, or Vespasian. But regardless, the result was the same.)

Luke 19:43-44: “For the days shall come upon you [Jerusalem], that your enemies will build an embankment around you, and surround you and close you in on every side, and shall level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”]

9:27 And he will have caused to make strong/to prevail/to confirm [a] covenant for many one week [of years].

[“…he will have caused”: 3 masc. sing. Hiphil Perfect. This was Vespasian’s policy, which he established from the beginning of the war: for those Jews who would continue to submit to Rome’s civil authority, Rome would continue to maintain the peace and permit the Jews to allow only YHWH-worship in the land. But any place in the land that harbored rebellion against Rome, including Jerusalem and Temple, would be desolated.

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.” III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…” III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

And in the midst of the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and offering. And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural], even until the consummation decreed is poured upon the desolate.

[in 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” –- no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel –- the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1. The utter desolation by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the desolation of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73.]

Thus, Daniel 9:24-27 provides an accurate summary of events in Judea from the First Coming of the Messiah up to the destruction of the Temple. It doesn’t mention at all

– any abomination of desolation of the Holy Place;

– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;

– the Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was;

– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;

– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;

– the coming prince’s demise;

– or the raising of the dead.

These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why none of them here? Because this is not a prophecy for the end of Church Age, but rather for the Jewish Age.

There is no scripture that prophesies the rebuilding of the Temple prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah in the clouds.

There is no scripture that says Jerusalem will be destroyed in the End Times.

There is no scripture that specifically speaks of a 7-year period in the End Times.

 

The full article, which covers all of verses 24-27, can be found here: 

http://joelstrumpet.freeforums.org/daniel-9-24-27-s-70th-week-when-fulfilled-t2492.html

 

 

 

=========================================================================================================

 

 

You're off the reservation here applying The 70 Weeks of Daniel (9:24-27) to the events of 70AD.  There's about 10 reasons but I'll post 2 for Brevity.

 

Proof #1. Look @ Daniel 9:24

 

(Daniel 9:24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

After the events of 70AD, do we have any of these:  Are Transgressions finished? Is there an end of Sins?  I suppose we can stop right there.  

 

 

Proof #2.  You may also have a problem with confusing Mathew 24 (the Olivet Discourse) and Luke 21....they are not the same.  Luke is speaking to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Matthew is speaking to end times:

 

Matthews account is the Olivet Discourse that took place on the Mount of Olives @ Night between Christ, Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

Luke's Account was during the day in the Temple with all the Apostles and Followers......

(Luke 21:1-6) "And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.  {2} And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.  {3} And he said,  Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:  {4}  For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.  {5} And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,  {6}  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

and Scripture even tells you here...

(Luke 21:36-37) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.  {37} And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives."

Lets take a look specifically @ the 2 Accounts with Attention to Detail (I'll highlight the difference):

(Luke 21:9-12) " But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.  {10} Then said he unto them,  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:  {11}  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.  {12}  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

(Matthew 24:6-9) " And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  {7}  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  {8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows.  {9}  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Yes, they both speak of the same signs......but look closely:  Luke is describing events that take place "Before" all these Signs.....then discussion.   Matthew says "Then" shall they.....Events "After these signs"....then discussion.

 

Matthew 24---- End Times.

 

Luke 21 ----- Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Capper:  The Pivotal Landmark in The Olivet Discourse is the "Abomination of Desolation", Correct?  Please show the "Abomination of Desolation" in Luke?