For those that believe in the Big Bang, what was there before?

[Guest shiloh357]

Seems like a pretty convenient setup.  "Science is not in conflict with the Bible (as long as I define "science" as "that which agrees with the Bible")."

 

I didn't say anything about science being defined as "that which agrees with the Bible."  I said that it is scientists with an atheistic worldview who allow that worldview to drive how they approach science that are in conflict with the Bible.  

 

Are you saying that evolutionary biologists and such all have an "atheistic worldview" and are conspiring (e.g., fudging data, rigging results) to discredit the Bible?

 

Nope.  I don't even see how you can get that out of what I said (unles you are lacking basic reading comphrension skills).   Generally speaking, the scientific community has been hi-jacked by an atheistic worldview in so far as those scientists who do not worship at the altar of evolution, are denigrated and ridiculed and treated like crackpots.  I don't think there is any kind of "conspiracy" per se, but there is embedded in the general scientific community a rejection of the claims the Bible, especially where the issue of origins is concerned.  There is a somewhat militant aversion toward scientists who believe the universe was created by God whether they are old earth or young earth creationists.

 

Sure, and many other great scientists have been non-Christians as well.  In most cases, your religious beliefs don't matter much to the science you do.  Pick up a scientific journal and from any article you'd never know if the authors were Christian, atheists, Muslims, or whatever.

 

That may be true, but the point is that science and a belief that God created the world and didn't use evolution to do it has never been a hindrance to science.  The scientific method used by atheisitic scientists today was formulated by a Creationist who was also a Christian.  Galileo, who was a Christian, discovered helio-centrism.   , Johannes Keplar discovered the  laws governing planetary motion;  these men would be ridiculed today for their belief in God as Creator.  

[MarkNigro]

 

Seems like a pretty convenient setup.  "Science is not in conflict with the Bible (as long as I define "science" as "that which agrees with the Bible")."

 

I didn't say anything about science being defined as "that which agrees with the Bible."  I said that it is scientists with an atheistic worldview who allow that worldview to drive how they approach science that are in conflict with the Bible.  

 

Are you saying that evolutionary biologists and such all have an "atheistic worldview" and are conspiring (e.g., fudging data, rigging results) to discredit the Bible?

 

Nope.  I don't even see how you can get that out of what I said (unles you are lacking basic reading comphrension skills).   Generally speaking, the scientific community has been hi-jacked by an atheistic worldview in so far as those scientists who do not worship at the altar of evolution, are denigrated and ridiculed and treated like crackpots.  I don't think there is any kind of "conspiracy" per se, but there is embedded in the general scientific community a rejection of the claims the Bible, especially where the issue of origins is concerned.  There is a somewhat militant aversion toward scientists who believe the universe was created by God whether they are old earth or young earth creationists.

 

Sure, and many other great scientists have been non-Christians as well.  In most cases, your religious beliefs don't matter much to the science you do.  Pick up a scientific journal and from any article you'd never know if the authors were Christian, atheists, Muslims, or whatever.

 

That may be true, but the point is that science and a belief that God created the world and didn't use evolution to do it has never been a hindrance to science.  The scientific method used by atheisitic scientists today was formulated by a Creationist who was also a Christian.  Galileo, who was a Christian, discovered helio-centrism.   , Johannes Keplar discovered the  laws governing planetary motion;  these men would be ridiculed today for their belief in God as Creator.  

 

Isaac Newton was a Bible believing creationist.

 

Many scientific discoveries and Calculus too.

[Guest shiloh357]

What's the effective difference?  If the "atheistic worldview approach to science" is the dominant paradigm now (as you claim), then its products are today's "science" (e.g., big bang theory, universal common ancestry, human-primate common ancestry).  Clearly you believe those products of science are in conflict with the Bible.

 

So how does that mesh with your assertion, "Science is not in conflict with the Bible and never has been"?

 

Because I am drawing a line of demarcation between science and scientists.  I think science is a marvelous scope for understanding God's creation. I enjoyed my classes in physics, biology and earth science.  They were fascinating to me.

Um....that's pretty much a deliberate conspiracy.  The atheists hijack science and deliberately persecute everyone who disagrees with them.

 

How then do we account for prominent Christian scientists, such as Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller?

 

It is not a conspiracy.  It's true by and large.    Miller and Collins are also evolutionists.  They are not the scientists I was referring to.  I am referring to any scientist that  doesn't accept evolution and holds to a creation model.

 

Perhaps that is because the claims of the Bible regarding creation (at least according to what literal creationists assert) are easily shown to be false.

 

No, they haven't.  I think we also view the term, "literal" differently as well.

 

And I think that's the core issue here.  Science isn't supposed to give any special treatment to a religion's beliefs, one way or the other.  Science goes out and studies the world as it is.  If subsequent discoveries conflict with (or confirm) a religion's creation story, that's of no concern to science.  Over the last 200 years or so, scientists have reached consensus on the conclusions that the earth is ~4.5 billion years old, all life on earth shares a common ancestry, and humans and primates share a common ancestry.

 

So that puts conservative Christians such as yourself into a decision point.  Either accept the scientific conclusions and alter your religious beliefs, or reject the scientific conclusions and maintain your religious beliefs.  Clearly you have chosen the latter.  A necessary result is that you are now forced to come up with some justification for denying some of the most foundational conclusions of all science.  You could:

 

1) Say "I don't care about the science.  My position is based on the Bible alone."

 

2) Try and disprove the scientific conclusions from a scientific perspective (something some creationist organizations have unsuccessfully tried to do for decades).

 

3) Chalk the scientific consensus up to a grand conspiracy ("the scientific community has been hi-jacked by an atheistic worldview in so far as those scientists who do not worship at the altar of evolution, are denigrated and ridiculed and treated like crackpots"), and insist that "real science" supports your religion.

Ah yes, the infallibility of science argument.  Scientists are little, finite, fallible men of limited intelligence. I should take their word over the word of an infinite, all-knowing, infallible God, who was actually present at the beginning and is in the best position to tell us how creation began??

 

Why should I trust how scientists interpret the evidence?  Why is the claims of an eternal, infallible God wrong and men who were not present at creation and did not see it happen, are to be implicitly trusted to tell me how life began?

First, this is directly contradicted by the existence of high profile Christian scientists such as Francis Collins.  Second, even if they were "ridiculed", that wouldn't matter one bit to their work.  Every one of them would still be able to work under the scientific method that's still in use today.

 

 

I don't see the contradiction...

 

Ridicule woudl directly affect their work and their ability to even get their work peer reviewed.  That has a great effect on your work in the science world.

[JDavis]

 

 

Not at all. It says a evening and a morning = 1 day = 24 hours.

And not one topic at a time at all.

I am not sure what part of the planet you live in, but where i am the time between evening and morning is about 11 hours and that changes with the seasons.

Can we at least agree the word day has more than one meaning?

And yes, one step at a time is the only way to tackle this....it is like eating an elephant....one bite at a time

 

It means 24 hours. 

 

 

ok, lets try this for a change...

 

Gen 2:4

 

These are the generations

of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (ESV)

 

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (KJV)

 

Does the word day in this verse mean 24 hours? 

 

Gen 1:5...

.God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

The first use of the word day in this verse, does it mean 24 hours?

[MarkNigro]

 

 

 

Not at all. It says a evening and a morning = 1 day = 24 hours.

And not one topic at a time at all.

I am not sure what part of the planet you live in, but where i am the time between evening and morning is about 11 hours and that changes with the seasons.

Can we at least agree the word day has more than one meaning?

And yes, one step at a time is the only way to tackle this....it is like eating an elephant....one bite at a time

 

It means 24 hours. 

 

 

ok, lets try this for a change...

 

Gen 2:4

 

These are the generations

of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (ESV)

 

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (KJV)

 

Does the word day in this verse mean 24 hours? 

 

Gen 1:5...

.God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

The first use of the word day in this verse, does it mean 24 hours?

 

[MarkNigro]

 

 

 

 

Not at all. It says a evening and a morning = 1 day = 24 hours.

And not one topic at a time at all.

I am not sure what part of the planet you live in, but where i am the time between evening and morning is about 11 hours and that changes with the seasons.

Can we at least agree the word day has more than one meaning?

And yes, one step at a time is the only way to tackle this....it is like eating an elephant....one bite at a time

 

It means 24 hours. 

 

 

ok, lets try this for a change...

 

Gen 2:4

 

These are the generations

of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (ESV)

 

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (KJV)

 

Does the word day in this verse mean 24 hours? 

 

Gen 1:5...

.God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

The first use of the word day in this verse, does it mean 24 hours?

 

 

On day 1 in Genesis 1:1 God made the heaven and the earth.

day = 24 hrs

[MarkNigro]

God spoke the following words once and wrote it twice with His own finger into stone. Six days is six days. At the time this was spoken and written (circa 1500 BC) that is 24 hour days. If it weren’t six 24-hour days God would have lied or deceived the Israelites.

 

 

Exodus 20:11

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

Look at Genesis 1. From the above verse, the whole chapter took only 6 days. It is always days throughout the whole chapter. The days are numbered. Notice also that the day is divided into evening and morning. Notice the order of creation does not match the order given by the Big Bang theory of billions of years. The Sun is created on day 4, the Earth day 1. The trees are created on day 3, but the fish are created on day 5. Also note that in verse 31, at the end of day 6, God said it was very good. But the long ages theory would have had death, disease, and suffering of a multitude of creatures for over billion years at this point. Does not sound very good at all. Adam and Eve would have looked at God and said “are you kidding me?” No wonder they did not believe God in Genesis 3.

 

Genesis 1:1-31

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

Jesus Christ said:

 

Mark 10:6

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

 

The Big Bang theory has people created after about 12 billion years. The Holy Bible has it as only in day 6.

 

Jesus also said:

 

Luke 11:50-51

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

 

That would hardly match 12 billion years later.

 

Anyone trying to claim long ages will never be able to defend the worldwide flood in the days of Noah.

 

Genesis 7:11-24

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Edited August 15, 2013 by ~candice~
deleted quote

[Sculelos]

I don't personally believe that their ever was a big bang.

 

There are many different answers scientist give however and I'm familiar with most of them.

 

First theory is It all just came into existence from nothing. (This is most popular)

Second theory is It came from an Alternate Universe where something did exist.

Third theory is that energy can't be created or destroyed and the energy has always existed. 

 

Again all of those theories to me are rubbish as I believe only Jehovah God the Father existed before everything else. 

[enoob57]

I don't personally believe that their ever was a big bang.

 

There are many different answers scientist give however and I'm familiar with most of them.

 

First theory is It all just came into existence from nothing. (This is most popular)

Second theory is It came from an Alternate Universe where something did exist.

Third theory is that energy can't be created or destroyed and the energy has always existed. 

 

Again all of those theories to me are rubbish as I believe only Jehovah God the Father existed before everything else. 

So you don't see God as Father, Son and Spirit?

[JDavis]

 

On day 1 in Genesis 1:1 God made the heaven and the earth.

 

 

 

ok, lets try this for a change...

 

Gen 2:4

 

These are the generations

of the heavens and the earth when they were created,

in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.  (ESV)

 

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, (KJV)

 

Does the word day in this verse mean 24 hours? 

 

Gen 1:5...

.God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

The first use of the word day in this verse, does it mean 24 hours?

 

 

 

 

You didn't answer the question. 

 

Does the use of the word day that I have put in bold above imply a 24 hour day? 

 

A simple yes or no would be fine.