Discussion of Omiscience

[Widor1]

Sadly Most Men Are Seen Proudly Prancing And Dancing Away From Their Creator

 

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

 

Not Seeming To Care Even Thirty Pieces Of Silver For His Priceless Love

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

 

Nor Desiring Any Of His Joy

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

 

Wise? I Think Not

 

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

 

~

 

Well, I'll have to think on this passage a bit.  It effectively says that whenever you think you're right, God constructed the universe for you to always be wrong, so that you would always look like a fool.  This has me recalling something about intellectual property rights, namely, that God seems very interested in intellectual property rights and glory, however, God constructed the entire universe so that God is the only being that can derive this pleasure without being punished.  Does that seem a bit odd to you?

 

~

 

Well Dear One I Have Not Doubt That Speaking For Yourself You See Your Point

 

And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Jeremiah 18:12

 

Nevertheless God's Word Speaking For Him Says Otherwise

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

And He Clearly States His Intentions

 

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

 

~

 

Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Joe

 

Joe, apparently I have reached my "quota" for positive votes in a day (guess I should slow it down!). But everything I see from you blesses me, and this especially has blessed me. 

[0username0]

 

 

Define dominion, then go read the Barnes bible definition.

 

I don't know what a Barnes bible definition is, but in most places you look, dominion means "supreme authority over".  Since animals range from viruses, bacteria, spiders, ants, bears, lions, elephants, etc... if this Bible verse is correct, it is impossible for any of these creatures to bring any of us any harm.  I think you are too steeped to some form of inerrancy to see the obvious truth that this passage is a lie (at best).

 

 

 

 

 

Where did you get your definition of dominion?  I just checked 5 on-line dictionaries and none of them had that as a meaning for the word dominion.

 

I guess it is easy to disprove things when you make up meaning to words.

 

That was the first definition I got when I used Google and typed "dominion definition", come on, I'm assuming you've lived long enough on this earth to realize that's the standard usage of dominion that doesn't refer to a parcel of land.

[Heissonear]

Matthew 10:30

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

That's not true. There is continuum which has infinitely divisible points between the head and the neck, there is no actual dividing line, and if there were a dividing line, there would be some hair that grew on that line.

Many paradoxes exist. They are undoubtedly a part of His design.Do they have answers? Well, some may spend 20 years investigating but much more time is required for even the brightest mind. But here is one I heard before the Lord Jesus came into my life:1. If God is all powerful and can do anything, than can He make a rock too big for Him to pick up? An answer to follow after time for others to think. So many have placed limitations on God!

[0username0]

Okay, 0username0, so I had a little time to step back and re-read what you previously wrote.  I'll try to address this, though I admit that I am neither a mathematician, nor a philosopher.

 

You predicate your proof on the argument that "no sentient being can single handedly count every whole number".  On what do you base this argument?  If I argue that God is sentient, then, in His omnipotence, I would say that he, like Chuck Norris, not only can count to infinity, but He can do it twice.  In reality, I think the problem here is the argument's example.  To work around the problem of infinity, you place a finite number (albeit an unknown end) to the number system but then apply an infinite number of sentient beings to count them by each uttering a single number.  This makes no sense because you're simply substituting one infinite with another.  It's an attempt to make the numbers themselves concrete to avoid the abstraction, which won't work.

 

Ultimately, the problem with using counting as an example is that you apply the skill and purpose of counting to a problem for which it was never designed.  The whole purpose of a number system and counting as an action is to solve a problem that has a finite solution.  How many apples are in this barrel?  If one train leaves Chicago at 5am and the other leaves New York at 7am... These are problems for which counting, in one form or another, is a suitable method.

 

Another problem may be that we do not share a common definition for "sentience".  If we cannot agree on a definition, we must either choose another way to agree on what me mean or agree that communication is not possible because we are not speaking the same language.  I am aware that there are some who attempt to quantify or objectify sentience (Douglass Hofstadter appears to do so when evaluating the "size of a soul" in his book, "I Am a Strange Loop").  I argue that this is either not possible or not necessary because sentience is simply the state of self awareness.  But, I digress.

 

First my usage of sentience refers to the ability to discern a self or an other.  Like dogs, cats, amoebas... something that discerns something.  I'm not trying to go for more abstract definitions of sentience like social scientists do when they say that you are not technically human until you can blush, which happens at about 5 years of age.

 

Your argument is false, it is false because a being cannot be omniscient.  If you were paying attention to my argument, you would understand this.  No sentient being can count all the numbers of infinity, any infinite string, because there is no such thing as all the numbers.. it's infinite, there is no end.  Not only is it infinite and without end, because it is infinite and without end, if you tried to process those numbers at infinite processing speed, which is so fast that it converges at zero time to process, or rather, processed outside of time itself, you wouldn't see all of the numbers, because there is no such thing as all of the numbers, you'd get an error.  This is because sentience cannot hold an infinite set, only a finite set.  The only way an infinite set can even be counted is in time, if you process it outside of time, it becomes an error, because the numbers don't ever stop, so the function would never terminate.

 

You speak of omnipotence as if you know what you're actually saying, but omnipotence requires the ability to control every particle in all existences in exactly the way you want to, which requires omnipresence and omniscience, if you understand these concepts well enough, you will understand that a disproof for one is a disproof for them all.

 

Your characterization of what I said about an infinite number of beings each counting a finite number completely missed the point.  Anytime sentience converges at infinite it reaches an error or collapses.  The only way this number (say all the whole numbers) can be counted at all (though no one being would be able to observe this count), is if a infinite number of beings each counted one whole number infinitely fast, while not knowing the numbers that the others counted.

Edited July 13, 2013 by 0username0

[0username0]

 

 

Matthew 10:30

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

 

That's not true. There is continuum which has infinitely divisible points between the head and the neck, there is no actual dividing line, and if there were a dividing line, there would be some hair that grew on that line.

Many paradoxes exist. They are undoubtedly a part of His design.Do they have answers? Well, some may spend 20 years investigating but much more time is required for even the brightest mind. But here is one I heard before the Lord Jesus came into my life:1. If God is all powerful and can do anything, than can He make a rock too big for Him to pick up? An answer to follow after time for others to think. So many have placed limitations on God!

 

I wouldn't even dream of using a paradox to try to prove or disprove a potential being, and if you've read what I've written, there are no paradoxes here.  Another paradox is that God must know what it's like to not know anything in order to know what it's like to contain all the actual ignorance that all being in the universe collectively possess, which means that God doesn't know anything and God knows everything, which reaches a paradoxical contradiction (as all paradoxes are).

[MorningGlory]

I just wanted to take a moment to fill potential respondents in on something.  I have been sweating this conjecture for 20 years straight, I have checked all the nooks and crannies.  Every point raised thus far is something I've already pondered when trying to figure out whether a being can be omniscient.  Twenty years, and I'm super smart, twenty years of super-smart on the same problem is going to be difficult to stump as you consider your responses.  I am a world expert on this conjecture.

Congratulations on your self-proclaimed 'super smartness'.  However, being only a fallible mortal, you are NOT smart enough to figure out God.  You persist in applying the conditions of YOUR existence to Him.  That's ludicrous.  Please come down off that high horse and live in reality.  If you're a 'world expert', I assume you're published?

[Guest]

From The Heart Of God With Love

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

A Royal Invitation

 

~

 

Define dominion, then go read the Barnes bible definition.

 

I don't know what a Barnes bible definition is, but in most places you look, dominion means "supreme authority over".  Since animals range from viruses, bacteria, spiders, ants, bears, lions, elephants, etc... if this Bible verse is correct, it is impossible for any of these creatures to bring any of us any harm.  I think you are too steeped to some form of inerrancy to see the obvious truth that this passage is a lie (at best).

 

~

 

Dear One There Is Nothing About The Liar

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

 

Or The Lie

 

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:4

 

That Should Puff Us Humans Up

 

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:21-22

 

Nevertheless Some Still Puff At The Truth

 

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

 

And Think They Are Oh So Cleaver And Oh So Good

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:10-11

 

When The Facts Would Tell Even A Fifth Grader To Run To Jesus

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

To Turn And To Trust In His Goodness

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

With Joy

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

~

 

Forget Your Nasty Old Self

 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

 

And Believe In Your Creator

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

 

Be Very Blessed

 

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:12

 

Love, Joe

[Guest]

I just wanted to take a moment to fill potential respondents in on something.  I have been sweating this conjecture for 20 years straight, I have checked all the nooks and crannies.  Every point raised thus far is something I've already pondered when trying to figure out whether a being can be omniscient.  Twenty years, and I'm super smart, twenty years of super-smart on the same problem is going to be difficult to stump as you consider your responses.  I am a world expert on this conjecture.

 

Congratulations on your self-proclaimed 'super smartness'.  However, being only a fallible mortal, you are NOT smart enough to figure out God.  You persist in applying the conditions of YOUR existence to Him.  That's ludicrous.  Please come down off that high horse and live in reality.  If you're a 'world expert', I assume you're published?

 

 

~

 

To Stuck In Your Ways To Learn?

 

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

 

And To Proud To Dig Your Way Out?

 

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8 (NIV)

 

Just

 

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

 

Ask

 

The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. John 12:21

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Love, Joe

[JDavis]

 

 

 

Matthew 10:30

"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

 

That's not true. There is continuum which has infinitely divisible points between the head and the neck, there is no actual dividing line, and if there were a dividing line, there would be some hair that grew on that line.

Many paradoxes exist. They are undoubtedly a part of His design.Do they have answers? Well, some may spend 20 years investigating but much more time is required for even the brightest mind. But here is one I heard before the Lord Jesus came into my life:1. If God is all powerful and can do anything, than can He make a rock too big for Him to pick up? An answer to follow after time for others to think. So many have placed limitations on God!

 

I wouldn't even dream of using a paradox to try to prove or disprove a potential being, and if you've read what I've written, there are no paradoxes here.  Another paradox is that God must know what it's like to not know anything in order to know what it's like to contain all the actual ignorance that all being in the universe collectively possess, which means that God doesn't know anything and God knows everything, which reaches a paradoxical contradiction (as all paradoxes are).

 

 

The very concept of infinity itself is a paradox, thus you are using a paradox to try to prove or disprove a potential being.

[enoob57]

So, you see, the ability to count objects ad infinitum does not exist within a finite universe.  We are creatures bound by time and space.  There is a finite number of stars in that universe (though it may not appear finite).  There is a finite distance to the universe's bounds (though we cannot see it, can barely conceive it, and have absolutely NO construct for determining the nature of the boundary or what is on "the other side".  External to our finite universe, you have a Creator who is, by His nature (and of logical need), infinite.  An infinite Creator has no need to "count" anything because there simply is nothing concrete to count... including the number of natural numbers on the number line.

 

Here are some things for your consideration:

 

So, you see, the ability to count objects ad infinitum does not exist within a finite universe.

That is not exactly so!

(as you have said) We have not experientially through sensual perception come to borders of cosmos thus we can keep counting

within it~ even though by faith we know it has bounds by what God has said- He 'IS' outside of it presently stretching it out like a curtain

So we can't prove finiteness of universe otherwise except by His Word... as ad infinitum has no need of spatial allowance!

 

God's presence is presently within a Bodily form as The Son of God yet all His attributes are fully restored to Him as previous in The Godhead!

Because our perspective is of a variance in nature of objective source when it should be spiritual- example:

a small child describes the room as huge but Goliath of Gath another opinion all together of same room! This truth tells us that only a Being that

'IS' God can have an infinite perspective and is not bound by even the very space we are bound within else we all would just have portions of The

Holy Spirit within us-right? We Have the fullness of God The Holy Spirit within each and everyone of us! God simply began us into the infinite as

beginning without end till we chose disobedience and then all that we were and what we were in received end (death)!  Love, Stevn