Discussion of Omiscience

[enoob57]

 

I posted this in a secular web board and was called names for posting it, I suppose it won't be much different here, but you also have rules here that they don't have, so maybe I won't.  I actually think they were jealous of me at the secular web board, which seems strange.  Anyways, here's my disproof....

 

So mathematicians have these things called conjectures which are either proven or disproven as time goes on, some have lasted for hundreds of years.  There is a conjecture of being which is that a being can be all-powerful, all-knowing and/or all-present.  Many people assume that this is true and act in accordance with this belief, often doing the same things that a person who doesn't believe it will do, many consider that it's not true, and basically do whatever they'd do even if they believed it.  However I do think there is a difference that occurs when someone acts upon reason instead of conjectures.

 

What I've discovered is effectively that however this went, proof or disproof, that it is disproven.  No sentient being can have these properties.  I basically solved a many thousands of years old conjecture.

 

The disproof starts with numbers, namely, the process of counting them all, such as pi, with an infinite number of digits that don't repeat, or even perhaps a number like 0.1(repeating ones), where you have to actually think each digit as it expands.  It is impossible to count all of these numbers, because you can't count all the numbers.  You can't count them all, because they never stop, there is no "all of the digits of pi", and you couldn't even count them all of you lived forever because you can't count "forever", it's not a number.

 

What happens when a being does try to count all of the digits of pi, perhaps infinitely fast, is that an error occurs, because they can't all be counted.

 

No single being can count all of the numbers.  However, it is possible to count all of the digits of pi if you have an infinite number of beings each counting a digit (each being counting a finite number infinitely fast), but the moment a single being parallel processes all of these infinite beings at infinity (infinitely fast), where the number becomes infinite, an error will emerge.  Pi can be counted, it's just that there needs to be a division of labor where some beings are counting numbers that other beings cannot possibly count or know in order for the entire number to be counted.

 

This brings me to another point which is that if there are an infinite number of beings, there will be beings that know stuff that no single being can know, and this not only shows that a being cannot be omniscient, it shows that it cannot even know everything that is known by beings who know things.

 

But this only happens if there are an infinite number of beings.  Someone might argue that the "omniscient" being they are referring to obviously can't know things that nobody can know, but knows everything that can be known and they might argue that there are only a finite number of beings.

 

Thus comes my second disproof.  If a being is parallel processing all of a finite number of beings, it effectively has a "body" that is everyone, and this is no ordinary body in the sense that we think of it, there is nothing outside of it.  This is a critical mass at convergence that causes a very serious problem.  If you are everybody, then you don't have anything to allow the perception of other, because you are either everyone or everything, and this critical mass collapses the ability to be sentient, the capacity to discern something else or ones self.  It's impossible to be both everything (which is what omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence imply) and sentient at the same time for any being.  I'll try to restate this if it didn't make sense the first time:  If you are everything, including yourself, there is nothing other than you from which it is possible to distinguish yourself, the moment you parallel process everything, you cease to be a sentient being, the ability to discern "other", you or something else, vanishes.  This is the same thing that happens when you try to process an infinite amount of numbers at once, it comes back as an error.

 

What this means is that it's impossible for a being to even know everything a finite number of beings know.

 

Because we were began with beginning and because of sin we sided with the finiteness of death.. We all must connect to God in faith alone!

Designed by God as substance born from His Word alone and requires nothing but that Word to be!  God Says this about Himself

Isa 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things that are not yet done,

Saying, 'My counsel shall stand,

And I will do all My pleasure,'

NKJV

We The Born of God have this infinite within us in The Person of The Holy Spirit ... 

Clearly we see what God above has said and clearly we can study to find out through histories and archeology the fact of His invisible reality

through what He has made Rom 1:20 and what He has written (Word)... Love, Steven

[thomas t]

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

That is not the way the Bible or Theology works.  God does not use a single verse to tell us things, that would be a weak way that offers no support.  Theological concepts are composed of multiple passage all supporting one another not unlike the steel girders in a bridge.

 

People who ask for a single verse proving something from the Bible either do not understand the Bible or the know it can be done and that is why they ask.

 

Hello Davis,

well there are instances in which Jesus used single Bible verses and expanded on it.

Thomas

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

Welcome back Thomas T. Haven't seen you in a while.

One Bible verse? Okay. I suppose we can start there.

 

 

1 John 3:19-20

¹⁹ By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him; ²⁰ for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.

 

 

 

There are others...

 

God bless,

GE

 

Hello Jon,

thank you very much for your warm welcome.

I also appreciate you accepted the small challenge. However, taking into consideration that your verse starts with a condition - "whenever" - I think that it does not show that God indeed knows everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that perfect knowledge could eventually leave out unimportant parts. If you have perfect knowledge about a TV show, does that imply that you know everything out of it?

 

Have a nice day

Thomas

[Fez]

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

That is not the way the Bible or Theology works.  God does not use a single verse to tell us things, that would be a weak way that offers no support.  Theological concepts are composed of multiple passage all supporting one another not unlike the steel girders in a bridge.

 

People who ask for a single verse proving something from the Bible either do not understand the Bible or the know it can be done and that is why they ask.

 

Hello Davis,

well there are instances in which Jesus used single Bible verses and expanded on it.

Thomas

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

Welcome back Thomas T. Haven't seen you in a while.

One Bible verse? Okay. I suppose we can start there.

 

 

1 John 3:19-20

¹⁹ By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him; ²⁰ for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.

 

 

 

There are others...

 

God bless,

GE

Hello Jon,

thank you very much for your warm welcome.

I also appreciate you accepted the small challenge. However, taking into consideration that your verse starts with a condition - "whenever" - I think that it does not show that God indeed knows everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that perfect knowledge could eventually leave out unimportant parts. If you have perfect knowledge about a TV show, does that imply that you know everything out of it?

 

Have a nice day

Thomas

Ok thomas, you brought the subject up. Now please prove to me that God does not know everything. Scripture would be good.

[JDavis]

 

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

That is not the way the Bible or Theology works.  God does not use a single verse to tell us things, that would be a weak way that offers no support.  Theological concepts are composed of multiple passage all supporting one another not unlike the steel girders in a bridge.

 

People who ask for a single verse proving something from the Bible either do not understand the Bible or the know it can be done and that is why they ask.

 

Hello Davis,

well there are instances in which Jesus used single Bible verses and expanded on it.

Thomas

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

Welcome back Thomas T. Haven't seen you in a while.

One Bible verse? Okay. I suppose we can start there.

 

 

1 John 3:19-20

¹⁹ By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him; ²⁰ for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.

 

 

 

There are others...

 

God bless,

GE

 

Hello Jon,

thank you very much for your warm welcome.

I also appreciate you accepted the small challenge. However, taking into consideration that your verse starts with a condition - "whenever" - I think that it does not show that God indeed knows everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that perfect knowledge could eventually leave out unimportant parts. If you have perfect knowledge about a TV show, does that imply that you know everything out of it?

 

Have a nice day

Thomas

 

Thomas,

 

Do you realize in the same post you supported using a single verse to prove a concept and then showed why it is wrong to do so.  Any single verse can be picked about and denied, as you did here.  This is why theological concepts are not based on single verses and why one should never try to support them with a single verse. 

[0username0]

 

 

 

*sigh* people are replying without even reading what I wrote.

 

I've covered the "outside of time" argument, that's what "infinite parallel processing speed" means, outside of time, you can't process information infinitely fast in time.  *sigh*

 

Also, I addressed the transcendence argument, just slapping a symbol on top of a process does not mean the process has been expressed, it has only been approximated. Approximating something is not transcending it!!!!!!!!

I think you will need to restate your 'infinite parallel process speed' argument. I don't claim that God processes information infinitely fast. I claim that God doesn't need to operate in time at all.

 

Processing something infinitely fast means the same thing as operating outside of time.  They mean the same thing.

 

No, they don't. Processing something infinitely fast is allowing the interval in time between event 1 and event 2 to go to zero. Being outside of time means not process events in temporal order *at all*. They are conceptually categorically different.

 

That's completely not true, infinity converges at zero time, the only way something can be processed infinitely fast is if it is outside of time.  Even if you refuse to believe this, just substitute everything about something being infinitely fast for "outside of time", because that's what I actually mean, and that's how the disproof stands.

 

Edited July 12, 2013 by 0username0

[0username0]

 

I just wanted to take a moment to fill potential respondents in on something.  I have been sweating this conjecture for 20 years straight, I have checked all the nooks and crannies.  Every point raised thus far is something I've already pondered when trying to figure out whether a being can be omniscient.  Twenty years, and I'm super smart, twenty years of super-smart on the same problem is going to be difficult to stump as you consider your responses.  I am a world expert on this conjecture.

 

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

 

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.

 

 

1 Corinthians 1

19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the perceiving ones."

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

22 For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness.

24 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.

26 For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called , not many mighty, not many noble.

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;

29 so that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;

31 so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

 

 

Well, I'll have to think on this passage a bit.  It effectively says that whenever you think you're right, God constructed the universe for you to always be wrong, so that you would always look like a fool.  This has me recalling something about intellectual property rights, namely, that God seems very interested in intellectual property rights and glory, however, God constructed the entire universe so that God is the only being that can derive this pleasure without being punished.  Does that seem a bit odd to you?

[Heissonear]

0user,

You can know Him if you want to. All it takes is true, sincere prayer from your heart. Those who seek Him find Him. There are some absolutes that can make an eternal impact in a person's life.

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

Welcome back Thomas T. Haven't seen you in a while.

One Bible verse? Okay. I suppose we can start there.

 

 

1 John 3:19-20

¹⁹ By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him; ²⁰ for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.

 

 

 

There are others...

 

God bless,

GE

 

Hello Jon,

thank you very much for your warm welcome.

I also appreciate you accepted the small challenge. However, taking into consideration that your verse starts with a condition - "whenever" - I think that it does not show that God indeed knows everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that perfect knowledge could eventually leave out unimportant parts. If you have perfect knowledge about a TV show, does that imply that you know everything out of it?

 

Have a nice day

Thomas

 

 

Well Thomas I kind of expected this reaction no matter what Scripture was presented. You asked for a clear indication of where in Scripture it is stated that God knows everything. So are you saying this passage is incorrect in it's assessment that God knows everything? If so, then your issue is with Scripture.

 

What do you think of the passages in Isaiah, Job, and Psalms when all combined with the passage in 1 John 3?

 

 

Thomas,

 

Do you realize in the same post you supported using a single verse to prove a concept and then showed why it is wrong to do so.  Any single verse can be picked about and denied, as you did here.  This is why theological concepts are not based on single verses and why one should never try to support them with a single verse. 

 

 

Thomas, I agree here with JDavis. As has been stated before by JDavis on this thread (and many others on the forum) to effectively understand Scripture we must look at passages in context and in comparison with other passages of Scripture.

 

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

That is not the way the Bible or Theology works.  God does not use a single verse to tell us things, that would be a weak way that offers no support.  Theological concepts are composed of multiple passage all supporting one another not unlike the steel girders in a bridge.

 

People who ask for a single verse proving something from the Bible either do not understand the Bible or the know it can be done and that is why they ask.

 

 

Hello Davis,

well there are instances in which Jesus used single Bible verses and expanded on it.

Thomas

 

Hello fellow posters,

 

can anyone name a Bibleverse telling us that God is omniscient?

Please try and find one and name it - for reasons of simplicity: could you please give just *one* verse telling us that God indeed knew everything?

 

Thanks

Thomas

 

Welcome back Thomas T. Haven't seen you in a while.

One Bible verse? Okay. I suppose we can start there.

 

 

1 John 3:19-20

¹⁹ By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before Him; ²⁰ for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and He knows everything.

 

 

 

There are others...

 

God bless,

GE

 

Hello Jon,

thank you very much for your warm welcome.

I also appreciate you accepted the small challenge. However, taking into consideration that your verse starts with a condition - "whenever" - I think that it does not show that God indeed knows everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that perfect knowledge could eventually leave out unimportant parts. If you have perfect knowledge about a TV show, does that imply that you know everything out of it?

 

Have a nice day

Thomas

 

Ok thomas, you brought the subject up. Now please prove to me that God does not know everything. Scripture would be good.

 

Yes, Let's flip the coin here. I would love to see Scripture passages Thomas that say God does not know everything.

 

God bless,

GE

[0username0]

Well, I don't know if the scripture says that God doesn't know everything, but there is a passage which implies that God either doesn't know everything or that God is a liar and that comes as early as Genesis 1:26 where God says that we have dominion over all the beasts.  If that were true, it would be impossible for a non-human animal to kill a human.