If we get nuked?

[dgolvach]

Funny how, when it served our purposes, it was all well and good for us to use "Bin Laden's evil", but now, with the cold war over, he must be hunted down and killed.

We created that monster, and now we have to deal with the consequences, there is no reason why innocent Iraqis should pay for what we, or Bin Laden have done. It is sick, we are spraying their land with toxic waste, which will be indiscriminately killing people for centuries, and this is somehow acceptable?

What are you talking about? Do you even know what Ben Laden's stated reason for attacking us was?

[M45510G1C]

Let me end the debate for you. The murder of 3000 innocent civilians on 911 WAS NOT JUSTIFIED by any argument! How dose turning your fate over to terrorists equal being a light to the world? Your dead! Thanks to Islam, there is no light in most of the Muslim part of the world unless you consider Islam (which rejects Christ as Lord) to be of God. It seems to me that creating freedom to even own a Bible is being a light on to the world. If the terrorists have there way, owning a bible will be a capital offence. No Bible?No light.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many Iraqi civilians have been killed in this war? Are their deaths justified?

What are you talking about?

*******************************************************

from Wikipedia:

His (Osama Bin Laden's) wealth and connections permitted him to pursue his interest in supporting the mujahedeen, Muslim guerrillas fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan following the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. (See the History of Afghanistan.) By 1984 he had established an organization named Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) (Office of Order in English), which funneled money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the world into the Afghan war.

MAK was supported by the governments of Pakistan, the United States and Saudi Arabia, and nurtured by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence.

*******************************************************

This should come as no surprise, as the United States has repeatedly used terrorist elements throughout history, though those in charge would prefer that they be referred to as freedom fighters so long as they are useful to US foreign policy. Do a Google search on the School of the Americas or WHINESEC.

Do you even know what Ben Laden's stated reason for attacking us was?

from Bin Laden's etter to America found at:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/s...,845725,00.html

Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

© Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

© Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

[hmh]

hmh 

If we get nuked by a terrorist retaliate by first nuke the cities of Mecca and Medina, which is their "holy" cities. Then inform Iran and Syria and the rest of the arab world that if the is any evidence that they helped supply the weapon, their country will suffer the same fate.

These kinds of comments from folks calling themselves Christians are disturbing, to say the least. What do you think it means to be a light to the world, nuclear fusion? Don't you realize there are people in those countries? And some of them might even be Christians, and all of them are made in the image of God. This is a terrible witness to unbelievers and one of the big reasons they want nothing to do with the church. It desecrates the name of Jesus, and you will be brought to account:

Matthew 12:34-37 For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a big difference between being a light to the world and being a glowing pile of nuclear waste. No where in the Bible does it say that Christians are to be dumped on. That kind of mentality breeds weakness and cowardance. If I am a bad example of a Christian to you because of the reaction and defence for my country, then so be it. I will not allow the terrorists of this world use me as their toliet. Nuke us, then we must wipe the perpetrators off of this planet.

[dgolvach]

There's a big difference between being a light to the world and being a glowing pile of nuclear waste. No where in the Bible does it say that Christians are to be dumped on. That kind of mentality breeds weakness and cowardance. If I am a bad example of a Christian to you because of the reaction and defence for my country, then so be it. I will not allow the terrorists of this world use me as their toliet. Nuke us, then we must wipe the perpetrators off of this planet.

hmh ...well...welcome to the bad Christian club!

I'm with you. This weak and cowardance blame everything on America mentality is dangerous. They just get out their left-wing green peace talking points hand book or worse yet, Osama's own words and make one bogus anti-American or Israel claim after another until people fall for it. Terrorists really must love the fact that Osama gets this much legitamacy here. I feel a cool Shariah chill blowing in the air!

Regards Dan ( fellow bad Christian)

[Guest shiloh357]

Augustine's rules for a just war are quite succint, and I'm sure the dialog in his day must have been quite interesting, I would have love to have been a fly on the wall for that discourse:

1. JUST WAR can only be waged by legitimate authorities. The war in Iraq is being waged by legitimate authorities

2. JUST WAR must exhaust all non-violent options first. We did that

3. JUST WAR must have a reasonable chance to succeed. We are succeeding

4. JUST WAR must be fought with right intentions. Preventing terrorists from getting their hands on Chemical and Nuclear weapons, preventing Hussein & sons from torturing, raping, and murdering innocent people are good intentions

5. JUST WAR must discriminate between combative enemies and non-combative civilians (Death of civilians is considered justifiable only if unavoidable). American forces are not targeting civilians. Civilian deaths are an unavoidable, and tragic part of war. There has never been a war fought, that did not involve innocent people accidentally getting killed. We (as they are in Israel) are fighting terrorists who do not wear uniforms who intentionally make themselves indistinguishable from civilians, who fire on soldiers from mosques and hospitals (places that are supposed to be protected from combat), who place themselves in the middle of civilian populations for the express purpose of seeing as many civilians killed by American forces as possible. They force civilians to strap bombs to themselves, they booby trap wounded children, and force women to carry handgrenades. It is the terrorists who are killing civilians. They use our humanity against us.

6. JUST WAR's ultimate goal should be to re-establish peace. And we will do that when the terrorists give up or die.

As for the submitting to Hitler's government if you are a good Romans 13 Christian, then absolutely you should submit.

So had you been in Hitler's Germany, you would have submitted? You would have supported Hitler's NAZI party and the final solution? I mean if you are going to submit, that would mean that you have follow Hitler's orders and turn in the names of all the Jews you find, to be handed over for extermination. THAT is a good Romans 13 Christian?

As far as Iraqi Christians submitting to the Hussein's government, it is clear that you have not thought this out very well. We are to submit to our government with regard to what is lawful and does not violate Christian principles. Should the Iraqi Christians violate Scripture and blindly submit to all of Hussein's whims?

If the government told you to murder someone who you go to church with, would you violate the commandment not to murder, or would you submit to the government? How far are you willing to take something like that? The idea that you suggest that Christians should submit to evil tyrants like Hitler and Hussein shows that you are not following Scripture. You are willing to make the most absurd, and outrageous suggestions to support your one sided, and very disingenuous version of pacifism.

[tako]

HI M45510G1C, You know the JEWS did just what you say don't anger the NAZI'S, And look what happend to them, Also there is a saying, never give in to TERRORIST DEMANDS, And this is known all over the world, Why? because it BREEDS MORE TERROISIM, History shows us this time & time again. You seem to imply that people who talk of WAR think little of people getting killed? It seems to me that you have led a shelterd life all of your life and that is why you say what you say, Well you have a right to your opinion this is AMERICA...........TAKO

[M45510G1C]

There's a big difference between being a light to the world and being a glowing pile of nuclear waste. No where in the Bible does it say that Christians are to be dumped on. That kind of mentality breeds weakness and cowardance. If I am a bad example of a Christian to you because of the reaction and defence for my country, then so be it. I will not allow the terrorists of this world use me as their toliet. Nuke us, then we must wipe the perpetrators off of this planet.

hmh ...well...welcome to the bad Christian club!

I'm with you. This weak and cowardance blame everything on America mentality is dangerous. They just get out their left-wing green peace talking points hand book or worse yet, Osama's own words and make one bogus anti-American or Israel claim after another until people fall for it. Terrorists really must love the fact that Osama gets this much legitamacy here. I feel a cool Shariah chill blowing in the air!

Regards Dan ( fellow bad Christian)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How cowardly it is to fight violence with peace when one could just use violence and utter military superiority....no, that isn't cowardice at all.

Yes, I just have my little "talking card" here with me. I have not raised any legitimate point to which you have utterly an completely failed to respond.

Edited November 18, 2004 by M45510G1C

[M45510G1C]

HI M45510G1C,    You know the JEWS did just what you say don't anger the NAZI'S, And look what happend to them, Also there is a saying, never give in to TERRORIST DEMANDS, And this is known all over the world, Why? because it BREEDS MORE TERROISIM, History shows us this time & time again. You seem to imply that people who talk of WAR think little of people getting killed? It seems to me that you have led a shelterd life all of your life and that is why you say what you say, Well you have a right to your opinion this is AMERICA...........TAKO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I do have the right in this country to express my opinon, and I thank God that I was born here, believe me. I think that current events are showing, however, that violence breeds terror far more quickly than peace. When did I ever say anything about giving in to terrorist demands?

If a man is attacking my family, I will defend them, the same goes for my country. However, if a man attacks my family, then runs away and hides, I do not believe it my duty to hunt him down. Especially if here were to be hiding amongst innocents which I would be unable to avoid killing, as the terrorists in Iraq are.

As for the likening our position to that of Jews in Europe circa the early 1940's is simply unfair. Our situation is nothnig at all like theirs. We are being threatened by an outside force, which claims to be attacking us due to our interventionist foreign policy. This simply cannot be said of the Jews. They were being threatened by an internal force, namely Adolf Hitler. Not only that, but the terror of the holocaust was international and genocidal in nature, much unlike the so-called terrorist threat of today.

There is an old unspoken rule on USENET that any argument will eventually use Hitler as an example, and that the first party to do so automatically looses

And what of the United States submitting to international law which it is in flagrant violation of?

Edited November 19, 2004 by M45510G1C

[dgolvach]

Go ask Osama if he would like to sit around the campfire and sing " give peace a chance" or "cumbaya" and see what happens. Just kidding.

God Bless

We just disagree

Dan

[M45510G1C]

Go ask Osama if he would like to sit around the campfire and sing " give peace a chance" or "cumbaya" and see what happens. Just kidding.

God Bless

We just disagree

Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps if the US were to cease in its interventionist tactics overseas, this may not be an unlikely scenario, at least as far as Osama's relations with the US go, Israel is a completely different matter. The unwillingness on the part of the US to do so utterly discredits anyone who says all peaceful measures have been attempted, they have not.

And remember, Jesus was more than willing to die, he could have fought the Romans with violence and escaped, but He choose to lay down His life in peace. I hate to think what followers of Christ would do if He had waited until now to perform such a sacrifice. I can see it now, a cross on a hill, a man on that cross, ready to peacefully die for the world's sins, when suddenly bombs rain from the sky, engulfing everyone nearby in flames, killers and innocent alike......

Edited November 18, 2004 by M45510G1C