Are You a fundamentalist.........Atheist?

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear artslady,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Do you realize overwhelmingly, the laws governing the US are based on Judeo Christian laws?

Yes, I realize that the laws governing the US are based on Judeo-christian morals. However, that does not validate that these morals are more or less correct than another set.

I think Christ said it differently. He said "Do unto others". Not "Do not do". Christ's message was more proactive, but they are similar.

I think it is better stated the way Confucius did. Do NOT do evil unto others is much better than doing good to others. It is indeed more proactive to stop doing naughty things to others.

If some of us have heard the voice of God personally then how is it illogical?

It may be indeed logical to those who believe and have heard some voice. It is illogical for me, since I have heard no such voice.

Why do you compare God to a fairytale, yet spend your life fighting this 'fairytale".

Everywhere on earth, people are worshipping something. We were created spiritual beings.

To me, there is little difference between god and a fairytale. I do not understand how you think that I fight fairytales. I do not fight any fairytale. They are just stories.

I disagree that everywhere on earth people worship something. I know I do not worship something. I do not consider myself particularly spiritual either. However, I guess you may construe that I was "created" by mom and dad when they were feeling ahem....."spiritual."

But as stated, in science, we know far less that what we do know. The unknowns are greater than the knowns. So to say there definitely is no God, is simply arrogant.

So if we know less than we don't know, ergo...there is a god? I think that is very arrogant and illogical too. When did I say there definitely is no god? If I did, I apologize. All I have said (and it seems to be so misunderstood) is that I have no beliefs in any god/s, for I have not been convinced by validated evidence.

Could you give me the site of the muslim and Buddhist board you frequent? I have many times wanted to go to one to debate. Maybe now I will.

Sure, I could. But because I don't want to disrespect the administrators of this board, I will do so in PM, since I have seen messages being deleted because they do not want to advertise websites that promote competing beliefs. Is that OK with you?

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

UndecidedFrog

[WayneB]

Sure, I could.  But because I don't want to disrespect the administrators of this board, I will do so in PM, since I have seen messages being deleted because they do not want to advertise websites that promote competing beliefs. 

Friend Frog,

Thank you for your consideration and respect.

Bless you,

Wayne

[artsylady]

Yes, I realize that the laws governing the US are based on Judeo-christian morals. However, that does not validate that these morals are more or less correct than another set.

Well are you glad you live in this country, where killing is wrong?

Are the countries where it is right and just to let baby girls die perfectly moral as well?

What about places where cannibalism is accepted? Is this right or wrong for them?

QUOTE

I think Christ said it differently. He said "Do unto others". Not "Do not do". Christ's message was more proactive, but they are similar.

I think it is better stated the way Confucius did. Do NOT do evil unto others is much better than doing good to others. It is indeed more proactive to stop doing naughty things to others.

Well, the reason why hospitals, in the first place, were set up is because Christians wanted to do good. The reasons why the hungry are fed in poor countries, by enlarge is because Christians want to reach out and help.

Not doing evil things to others is perfectly fine, but how much better is it to do good things? How much is the world different because Christ's teachings have been put into practise? Dont' you see how much better it is to do good, than to merely abstain from doing evil?

QUOTE

If some of us have heard the voice of God personally then how is it illogical?

It may be indeed logical to those who believe and have heard some voice. It is illogical for me, since I have heard no such voice.

I understand. But please don't say it is illogical for us?

QUOTE

Why do you compare God to a fairytale, yet spend your life fighting this 'fairytale".

Everywhere on earth, people are worshipping something. We were created spiritual beings.

To me, there is little difference between god and a fairytale. I do not understand how you think that I fight fairytales. I do not fight any fairytale. They are just stories.

So you liken the belief in God to a fairy tale. We agree on that. Now why is it so much more logical for you to spend time fighting a 'fairy tale", than it is for us to believe in it?

I disagree that everywhere on earth people worship something. I know I do not worship something. I do not consider myself particularly spiritual either. However, I guess you may construe that I was "created" by mom and dad when they were feeling ahem....."spiritual."

In other countries, no matter where you go, or how remote the village, people are worshipping something outside of themselves - something much bigger than themselves. Do you agree?

Personally I believe athiests worship their own intellect. No offense, but I believe that most athiests simply feel they are just too smart to believe in something bigger than themselves. I hope you don't fall into this catagory.

So if we know less than we don't know, ergo...there is a god?

Is it logical to say there is not one??

I think that is very arrogant and illogical too. When did I say there definitely is no god? If I did, I apologize.

Fair enough. I don't know if you came right out and said there was not a god. I'm glad your mind and heart are not closed to the concept.

All I have said (and it seems to be so misunderstood) is that I have no beliefs in any god/s, for I have not been convinced by validated evidence.

We Christians see evidence daily. I understand that you don't see this.

But what about the more than 500 peices of archeological evidence supporting the Biblical accounts? It's not that there is no evidence, it's that you've chosen to dismiss it as coincidence.

What about the fact that these writers lived for thousands of years and wrote of the same God - most of these men not having known each other and lived during different time periods? It's not that there is no evidence; it's that you've chosen to dismiss this as coincidence.

The Bible is one quarter prophesy. What about the hundreds of prophesies that have come to pass? It's not that this is not evidence, it is that you probably feel that the writer's have cheated for some reason or that you think we are 'reading into things' too much and have thus dismissed this.

The evidence Creation scientists use is the same evidence evolutionists use. It's not that this is not evidence, it's that you've decided that the evidence better fits evolutionary theory.

What about anthropology and the fact that there are 250 -500 flood legends around the world? It's not that this is not evidence, it's that you choose to regard it in a different way.

What about a drug addict who instantaneously gives their life to Christ and heads in a completey new direction free of this desire? It's not that this is not evidence of a greater power, it's that you choose to see it as coincidence, or wishful thinking.

What about the fact that the pyramids in Mexico, remarkably similar to the pyramids in Egypt, give testament to the story of the tower of Babel - that these folks had the same ideas and technology and were separated by God? It's not that there is no evidence, it's that you've chosen to view it as coincidence.

What about the earth and it's perfect rotation, allowing for life to thrive. About the tilt, allowing the tides to wash away all the dead matter from the oceans. What about the fact that the distance from the sun is ideal. What about the many layers that offer us protection? It's not that this and many other things like it are not evidence for design, it's that you've chosen to see it as accidental.

What about the complexity involved in so many of us creatures? The eye again, with many working parts, working ONLY when these parts come together perfectly. Again, this to us is clear evidence of design. To you, it's evidence somehow of natural process having took place.

There have even been studies on the power of prayer, with couples going through invitro fertilization and not knowing they were even in the studies. The ones prayed for were far more successful? Evidence? Sure it is. But again, I think you'll make a decision to discount it as anything.

I could go on and on and on here. The point - there is evidence and lots of it. We Christians see it daily.

[ellie]

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. In His Love, Ellie

[artsylady]

I agree with you artsylady, I often wonder if the atheists argue with Buddhists and Muslims too. In the past the ones I have known have only had a problem with the 'Christian God'. Not saying that all atheists are the same just my experience with some of them. But you made some very valid points. God bless. In His Great Love, ellie

Thank you Ellie. I didn't see your post until now. God bless you too!

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear artsylady,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Well are you glad you live in this country, where killing is wrong?

Are the countries where it is right and just to let baby girls die perfectly moral as well?

What about places where cannibalism is accepted? Is this right or wrong for them?

Yes, I am glad I live in this country where killing is against the law.

Yes, there are some countries where once upon a time, it was morally acceptable to let baby girls (and in some ancient societies, boys too) die.

Yes, there are places where cannibalism is accepted as morally correct.

How is any of this relevant to the existence of any god/s?

Dont' you see how much better it is to do good, than to merely abstain from doing evil?

No, I don't see how much better it is to do good. I prefer it if people would simply not do evil. That would be so much better for me.

Sorry to disagree with you.

I understand. But please don't say it is illogical for us?

Please show me where I have ever claimed to speak for anyone but myself. If I have been presumptuous, please forgive me. Please also refer to my preamble posted above all my posts stating that all my opinions are my own, and all are free to disagree and not accept any of them.

So you liken the belief in God to a fairy tale. We agree on that. Now why is it so much more logical for you to spend time fighting a 'fairy tale", than it is for us to believe in it?

Why do you think I fight fairy tales? Why do you think I fight at all? I really do not care if you believe in your stories. I have absolutely no problem with other people believing or disbelieving anything they wish.

In other countries, no matter where you go, or how remote the village, people are worshipping something outside of themselves - something much bigger than themselves. Do you agree?

Personally I believe athiests worship their own intellect. No offense, but I believe that most athiests simply feel they are just too smart to believe in something bigger than themselves. I hope you don't fall into this catagory.

I disagree that wherever I go, that all people believe in some god/s. I know there are atheists in every country.

I also disagree with you on your claim that atheists worship their own intellect. I can tell you that I do not worship my own intellect. My intellect is limited, and is no deity to be worshipped. BTW, I take no offense by your claim. As I have stated above, I have no problem with people believing as they wish, so you may continue having that belief.

QUOTE

So if we know less than we don't know, ergo...there is a god?

Is it logical to say there is not one??

It is illogical to determine (yes or no) the existence of any god/s based on the amount of knowledge one may possess at any one time relative to the amount of knowledge one lacks at the same time. Clearly, the example that you started has no relevance to the existence of any god.

We Christians see evidence daily. I understand that you don't see this.

Thank you for your understanding.

...I could go on and on and on here. The point - there is evidence and lots of it. We Christians see it daily

I'm sure you could go on and on. However, suffice it to say that what you claim as evidence is lacking in my eyes for one reason and/or another, and I would be willing to engage in a discussion on each point if you wish.

But my intention is not to debate the merits of my disbelief over your belief or vice versa.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[artsylady]

Yes, I am glad I live in this country where killing is against the law.

So do you think Thou Shalt not kill is a good law?

Yes, there are some countries where once upon a time, it was morally acceptable to let baby girls (and in some ancient societies, boys too) die.

This happens today. In India, it's morally fine to allow a baby girl to die.

Yes, there are places where cannibalism is accepted as morally correct.

How is any of this relevant to the existence of any god/s?

I just want to know, is it okay for people in India to let baby girls die? Is it okay for cannibals to kill and eat each other. Is it okay for them? Or is it just wrong?

QUOTE

Dont' you see how much better it is to do good, than to merely abstain from doing evil?

No, I don't see how much better it is to do good. I prefer it if people would simply not do evil. That would be so much better for me.

Sorry to disagree with you.

I'm not sure you've thought it through. If you were stranded on the side of the road, would you appreciate all of those people who didn't shoot you, or would you appreciate the one who stopped, made a phone call for you and drove you to the nearest service station? You would think that the ones who didn't shoot you were so much better for you?

Either you've never been in need or you have no desire to help anyone in need, or you just haven't given this enough thought.

You really don't see that it's better to try to do good, than it is to just simply not do evil? I almost can't beleive it.

QUOTE

So you liken the belief in God to a fairy tale. We agree on that. Now why is it so much more logical for you to spend time fighting a 'fairy tale", than it is for us to believe in it?

Why do you think I fight fairy tales? Why do you think I fight at all? I really do not care if you believe in your stories. I have absolutely no problem with other people believing or disbelieving anything they wish.

If I understand what you're trying to say is the reason you are here at all is to see if Christianity might be true and might be sought after. If this is correct, what are the pros that you've seen so far?

QUOTE

In other countries, no matter where you go, or how remote the village, people are worshipping something outside of themselves - something much bigger than themselves. Do you agree?

Personally I believe athiests worship their own intellect. No offense, but I believe that most athiests simply feel they are just too smart to believe in something bigger than themselves. I hope you don't fall into this catagory.

I disagree that wherever I go, that all people believe in some god/s. I know there are atheists in every country.

Here's what I mean. I think you already know that every country has a major religion. And, when missionaries find remote tribes who have seemingly never had contact with the 'outside world', they also are worshipping something - the tree gods, the gods of the sun, etc, - know what I mean?

The point, we humans are spiritual beings.

I also disagree with you on your claim that atheists worship their own intellect. I can tell you that I do not worship my own intellect. My intellect is limited, and is no deity to be worshipped. BTW, I take no offense by your claim. As I have stated above, I have no problem with people believing as they wish, so you may continue having that belief.

I understand you don't think your intellect is not to be worshipped. Do you think you are too intelligent to beleive in a god?

QUOTE

QUOTE

So if we know less than we don't know, ergo...there is a god?

Is it logical to say there is not one??

It is illogical to determine (yes or no) the existence of any god/s based on the amount of knowledge one may possess at any one time relative to the amount of knowledge one lacks at the same time. Clearly, the example that you started has no relevance to the existence of any god.

Okay, I'll go to a different example then. Let's say that hundreds of people have testified in a court of law that they've seen a blue fish with the head like a lion on voyages in the Pacific ocean. They've died for this belief. Is it logical to say that this creature definitely does not exist anywhere in the Pacific ocean?

QUOTE

We Christians see evidence daily. I understand that you don't see this.

Thank you for your understanding.

QUOTE

...I could go on and on and on here. The point - there is evidence and lots of it. We Christians see it daily

I'm sure you could go on and on. However, suffice it to say that what you claim as evidence is lacking in my eyes for one reason and/or another, and I would be willing to engage in a discussion on each point if you wish.

Are you looking at Christianity as a viable option or as a possibilty?

But my intention is not to debate the merits of my disbelief over your belief or vice versa.

I guess that's where we differ. You see, we Christians are trying to spread the message of Jesus Christ and rejoice when a nonbeliever accepts Christ as truth. So we are here to try to help you see this. We are trying to get you to change your mind and heart. We love our Lord and want others to know this peace and comfort as well.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear artsylady,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

So do you think Thou Shalt not kill is a good law?

Biased as I am from being brought up in cultures that do not condone murder, but do condone killing, I do not think Thou Shalt not kill is a good law. I think Thou Shalt not murder is a good law. Remember that most of the states in the US condone killing... they have the death penalty. That is my bias. I do not object to other cultures thinking differently. Do you?

I just want to know, is it okay for people in India to let baby girls die? Is it okay for cannibals to kill and eat each other. Is it okay for them? Or is it just wrong?

It depends. If they practice those beliefs in the US, they would be prosecuted. If they practiced those beliefs in their native culture, they would not be prosecuted, unless it is against their native laws. I hope you understand the difference.

I'm not sure you've thought it through. If you were stranded on the side of the road, would you appreciate all of those people who didn't shoot you, or would you appreciate the one who stopped, made a phone call for you and drove you to the nearest service station? You would think that the ones who didn't shoot you were so much better for you?

Actually, I have thought it through. Given the choices:

1) Person does not shoot me as I am stranded on the side of the road.

2) Person makes phone call and drives me to nearest service station.

I would much prefer #1 than #2. In scenario #1, I am alive, and I can walk to the nearest service station if the next person doesn't drive me there. In scenario #2, I am dead, and it wouldn't matter to me if the next person drives my corpse to the nearest service station. This is similar to the doctor's oath...first, do no harm.

If I understand what you're trying to say is the reason you are here at all is to see if Christianity might be true and might be sought after. If this is correct, what are the pros that you've seen so far?

So far, I have not seen much to differentiate a christian from other god-believers. I see more similarities. I see strident beliefs with little tolerance for differences. I see silence when I expected voices of reason to intervene when the need was present. But, as I have stated in previous posts, I am a statistician. And I will continue to gather data to increase my sample size and decrease my standard error.

Here's what I mean. I think you already know that every country has a major religion. And, when missionaries find remote tribes who have seemingly never had contact with the 'outside world', they also are worshipping something - the tree gods, the gods of the sun, etc, - know what I mean?

The point, we humans are spiritual beings.

I guess you missed my point... Not everyone believes in god/s. I do not believe in any god/s. Hence, am I a spiritual being? I agree that there are many who do believe in god/s. I also want you to acknowledge that there are some who do not.

I understand you don't think your intellect is not to be worshipped. Do you think you are too intelligent to beleive in a god?

No, I don't think I am too intelligent or too lacking in intelligence to believe when given compelling evidence.

Are you looking at Christianity as a viable option or as a possibilty?

I look at all beliefs and non-belief as viable options. Do you?

I guess that's where we differ. You see, we Christians are trying to spread the message of Jesus Christ and rejoice when a nonbeliever accepts Christ as truth. So we are here to try to help you see this. We are trying to get you to change your mind and heart. We love our Lord and want others to know this peace and comfort as well.

Yes, I see that we differ. I am not here to try to convert you to atheism, and I see that you are here to try and convince me of the wisdom and benefits of your beliefs. My eyes, and mind is open. But until I see something that is compelling to me, I shall believe or not believe as I am moved. In the meantime, I reside here in peace in comfort as well.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[artsylady]

Biased as I am from being brought up in cultures that do not condone murder, but do condone killing, I do not think Thou Shalt not kill is a good law. I think Thou Shalt not murder is a good law.

Actually it does translate to "thou shalt not do murder."

QUOTE

I just want to know, is it okay for people in India to let baby girls die? Is it okay for cannibals to kill and eat each other. Is it okay for them? Or is it just wrong?

It depends. If they practice those beliefs in the US, they would be prosecuted. If they practiced those beliefs in their native culture, they would not be prosecuted, unless it is against their native laws. I hope you understand the difference.

Well, yes of course I understand the difference. But you don't answer the question. Is it wrong for them? Or is right and wrong a matter of geography?

QUOTE

I'm not sure you've thought it through. If you were stranded on the side of the road, would you appreciate all of those people who didn't shoot you, or would you appreciate the one who stopped, made a phone call for you and drove you to the nearest service station? You would think that the ones who didn't shoot you were so much better for you?

Actually, I have thought it through. Given the choices:

1) Person does not shoot me as I am stranded on the side of the road.

2) Person makes phone call and drives me to nearest service station.

I would much prefer #1 than #2. In scenario #1, I am alive, and I can walk to the nearest service station if the next person doesn't drive me there. In scenario #2, I am dead, and it wouldn't matter to me if the next person drives my corpse to the nearest service station. This is similar to the doctor's oath...first, do no harm.

So you'd be more grateful to the ones who didn't shoot you than to the one who drove you 20 miles, let's make it in the rain to the nearest gas station?

Have you ever needed help? Have you ever been to a hospital? Have you ever helped anyone else? Do you know how good it feels to help someone else?

If you saw a child on the side of the road in the dark, would you drive by and think you were doing the child the best thing by not killing him?

I'm really questioning your sincerity here, I have to admit.

It seems that either you have a serious chip on your shoulder and have been really hurt by people, or you would just like to deny the goodness of God's laws at all cost.

QUOTE

If I understand what you're trying to say is the reason you are here at all is to see if Christianity might be true and might be sought after. If this is correct, what are the pros that you've seen so far?

So far, I have not seen much to differentiate a christian from other god-believers. I see more similarities. I see strident beliefs with little tolerance for differences. I see silence when I expected voices of reason to intervene when the need was present. But, as I have stated in previous posts, I am a statistician. And I will continue to gather data to increase my sample size and decrease my standard error.

I'm talking about motives here. I'm not exactly sure what motivates you to be here. I know what motivates the Christians to continue discussions with you and that is a love and concern for you. We would like to share Jesus with you because we have found a better way and just can't keep that kind of stuff to ourselves. Our lives are richer and more fulfilled and there is the promise of heaven. We just can't keep this stuff to ourselves. We have to share it with everyone who will listen.

QUOTE

Here's what I mean. I think you already know that every country has a major religion. And, when missionaries find remote tribes who have seemingly never had contact with the 'outside world', they also are worshipping something - the tree gods, the gods of the sun, etc, - know what I mean?

The point, we humans are spiritual beings.

I guess you missed my point... Not everyone believes in god/s. I do not believe in any god/s. Hence, am I a spiritual being? I agree that there are many who do believe in god/s. I also want you to acknowledge that there are some who do not.

Well of course there are some who say they do not beleive in anything at all. Yet those who say this seem to not be able to live contendedly in that belief. They have to come to places where Christians congregate. That shows to me a discontentment in your spirit, further solidifying my belief that humans are spiritual beings.

QUOTE

I understand you don't think your intellect is not to be worshipped. Do you think you are too intelligent to beleive in a god?

No, I don't think I am too intelligent or too lacking in intelligence to believe when given compelling evidence.

So, have you seen anything thus far? Anything at all. I asked you to name to pros of Christianity. Or can you name any possible examples of evidence for Christianity?

QUOTE

I guess that's where we differ. You see, we Christians are trying to spread the message of Jesus Christ and rejoice when a nonbeliever accepts Christ as truth. So we are here to try to help you see this. We are trying to get you to change your mind and heart. We love our Lord and want others to know this peace and comfort as well.

Yes, I see that we differ. I am not here to try to convert you to atheism, and I see that you are here to try and convince me of the wisdom and benefits of your beliefs. My eyes, and mind is open. But until I see something that is compelling to me, I shall believe or not believe as I am moved. In the meantime, I reside here in peace in comfort as well.

Well, you can go through the list presented earlier in the thread if you like.

[artsylady]

Are you looking at Christianity as a viable option or as a possibilty?

I look at all beliefs and non-belief as viable options. Do you?

I used to. I do not any longer. My eyes and heart and mind were open to the beleif (to other beliefs as well) and thankfully, I have decided to follow Jesus Christ all the days of my life.