Predestination

[Zemke]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

I like Spiros Zhodiates. I'm starting to read some of his works.

[Bold Believer]

This is a very tough thing to explain, because we are Predestined, yet we do have free will. Paul was a chosen vessel, and as such, God stopped him in his tracks to reveal Christ to him. He didn't do that for Gamileo or the many other deceived Pharisees of Paul's day. Even so, Paul still had to act upon that knowledge, and choose to follow Jesus. God created Paul to be his Apostle, but Paul had to freely become a bondslave to Jesus and follow him.

You can read through scripture, and see how God has already told us how future events will go down. That means he created certain people to fill certain rolls in getting us there. At the same time, they still choose to do those things. Like Jeremiah, he knew us before he created us in the womb, yet for better or worse, good or bad, he made us the way we are. We do choose what we do, but if we were created with full foreknowledge of how we would behave, is that truly free will?

Man no longer has free will, unless he is saved. Adam lost our corporate human free will when he sinned. We get it back in Christ. Until a man is saved, he is a slave to sin and evil through his evil nature.

[Bold Believer]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction.

[Guest shiloh357]

Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction.

I have read it several times and it doesn't say anything about God destining some people for destruction. God does not bring people into the world in order to destroy them. Talk about false doctrine...

[saved34]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction.

The great theme of Romans chapters 9-11 is not Predestination of people to hell, rather it is the blinding of Israel for the express purpose of God bringing in the Gentiles. The the chapters go on to illustrate that God will yet re-establish his chosen people Israel once again. Chapter 9 opens with:

Rom 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Then chapter 11 ends with:

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

Romans chapter 9 has been abused beyond belief. If taken in context, and in whole, it is very clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with the predetermining of a man or woman to hell. In fact, these chapters teach the exact opposite in that the door of salvation is wide open to the Gentiles (and a remnant of believing jews) today. God will yet return and restore the "fallen hut of David". Bless the Lord Jesus Christ, and God bless Israel.

[Floatingaxe]

I keep it as simple as possible. God, being Omnipresence, looks down through time and knows who will accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing who will, He predestines them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

All these titles just confuse me ...

Exactly!

[Guest shiloh357]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction.

The great theme of Romans chapters 9-11 is not Predestination of people to hell, rather it is the blinding of Israel for the express purpose of God bringing in the Gentiles. The the chapters go on to illustrate that God will yet re-establish his chosen people Israel once again. Chapter 9 opens with:

Rom 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Then chapter 11 ends with:

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

Romans chapter 9 has been abused beyond belief. If taken in context, and in whole, it is very clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with the predetermining of a man or woman to hell. In fact, these chapters teach the exact opposite in that the door of salvation is wide open to the Gentiles (and a remnant of believing jews) today. God will yet return and restore the "fallen hut of David". Bless the Lord Jesus Christ, and God bless Israel.

Excellent response. Well said.

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?

Do you think we have adequately dealt with "determined before to be done?"

If it does not mean what I state, then what does it mean?

Yes, God determined what would be the answer to their prayers. It could mean nothing else, but it cannot be used to disprove what I said about God foreknowing.

Shall we continue?.

[saved34]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?

Do you think we have adequately dealt with "determined before to be done?"

If it does not mean what I state, then what does it mean?

Eleanor, that particular verse you presented does not promote your belief in God choosing some, and neglecting others. (I'm assuming you are Calvinist, correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs) That verse specifically is talking about the Godhead (Trinity) determining before hand the sufferings of Christ through death, at the hands of Jew and gentile, and his glorious resurrection. God predetermined this before the foundation of the world.

1Pe 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

As far as your question of "what did I mean by corporate?" I simply meant the Body of Christ as a whole. We are determined to be presented Holy and without Blame before him in love. Christ himself is washing us and making us clean by his word. This is the guaranteed or predetermined outcome of the entire Church (all who believe on the Lord no matter the location).

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Eph 5:27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

Good question.

Because Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are

• conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28),
  
• thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),
  
• or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48)
  
  Rather, Scripture presents a God
  • whose plans, on the contrary, cannot be thwarted by man (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10),
    
  • who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30),
    
  • and who is looser to no man (Mt 5:26).

  It is the notions of men, not of Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.

  The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

  The God presented in the Scriptures is sovereign.

  Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Is 53:10; Da 11:36; Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28; 13:48)

  determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4;

  Rev 13:8, 17:8).

  For Scripture's answer to man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21.

  You fail to understand that Gods plans are not changed by man. You also do not understand what I presented. What I presented is God, before He created anything, looked down through time and knew the beginning from the end, and everything in between, and planned accordingly. Why do you see this as man changing Gods mind? His mind was made up far before man was created.