Predestination

[Floatingaxe]

In my sinful, unregenerate state, I exercised the free will I was born with to receive Jesus' sacrifice for my sin. My will was not bound and chained. It was free, given to me as a creation of God.

Arguing this again in another thread is arduous and unnecessary.

Floating axe you already admitted that to you free will is simply being alive. So you are quite right that it is futile to tell you that some people have enslaved wills since they would be dead. Unless of course you are willing to admit that some people are walking dead.

Everyone who is among the 'walking dead', which the Bible describes as reprobate, have had a free will up until they exercised it against the free offer of salvation.

Well this is what I mean by such a contradictory term as free will. Now you say all those who have excercised it against the free offer don't have free wills. Yet Paul was once Saul who excercised it against the free offer. So he therefore could not have believed via free will according to your own logic. Moreover these people that you say have lost their freewills, are they now enslaved wills? For they certainly have wills. More proof that the term free will, the noun as an absolute doesn't exist.

Yes, everyone is born with free will. Everyone believes in Jesus Christ does so by the use of their God-given free will. We choose life over death.

Reprobates are locked in by their choice. They will not be free. However, God is pretty much the only one who knows who these people are, except that he may give some of us the power of discernment concerning them.

[enoob57]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then? Love, Steven

I am not a Calvinist and I do not know if your post is addressed to me. But I would like to respond. I believe your question is right on point. What are we judged for if we have done nothing but His will? I would point out that Paul has said this is exactly what we would say in response to his preaching.

Romans 9:19-20

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

I believe what Paul is addressing is the heart attitude of a man created with finite capabilities questioning God is stupid! First we have no authority and are completely dependent on God for the absolute all of being... God 'IS' proclaiming His reality to us that we may know Him and to joy in the wonder at His Greatness- establishing fact so that we come not with error in questioning but with desire to understand the eternal understanding of righteous thinking in the simple reality of what's what. God 'IS' The Only Being as He 'IS' and there is no other example or comparative other than God Himself to learn of Him... His Uniqueness 'IS' His Glory and as I learn of His Being I am transformed into love that deepens for The Who of my God... Literally worship is formed in me by Who He 'IS' and this growth is directly proportional to the Word that proclaims and the meditations of His Qualities that enhance Life and directives of Spiritual essence...

Paul seems to be saying we have no right to question what God has made, or does, or how He works. Whether it be good or bad in our limited minds, it is as it should be. I guess that is the view from eternity. But we are in time at this moment and we must do the works that he has prepared for us that we should walk in them. I suspect at the end of our works if we have done them well and with a joyful demeanor, we will yet be thanking Him. rather than Him thanking us. So in conclusion I would guess that we are being judged for what we did with what He gave us.

Perhaps a little tweaking in the done in joyful demeanor to done in Spirit and the joyful demeanor is a resulting fruit of such doing... Always in Spirit we shall with His Spirit have thanksgiving to God for all that we enjoy is given us so that we may glory in Him!

I believe you are correct about the responsibility of what we are given! For this truth attached throughout Scripture- all have being as debt to God Who has brought all into the place to glory in Him and only two responses are possible Yes or No! Love, Steven

[childeye]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then? Love, Steven

I am not a Calvinist and I do not know if your post is addressed to me. But I would like to respond. I believe your question is right on point. What are we judged for if we have done nothing but His will? I would point out that Paul has said this is exactly what we would say in response to his preaching.

Romans 9:19-20

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

I believe what Paul is addressing is the heart attitude of a man created with finite capabilities questioning God is stupid! First we have no authority and are completely dependent on God for the absolute all of being... God 'IS' proclaiming His reality to us that we may know Him and to joy in the wonder at His Greatness- establishing fact so that we come not with error in questioning but with desire to understand the eternal understanding of righteous thinking in the simple reality of what's what. God 'IS' The Only Being as He 'IS' and there is no other example or comparative other than God Himself to learn of Him... His Uniqueness 'IS' His Glory and as I learn of His Being I am transformed into love that deepens for The Who of my God... Literally worship is formed in me by Who He 'IS' and this growth is directly proportional to the Word that proclaims and the meditations of His Qualities that enhance Life and directives of Spiritual essence...

Paul seems to be saying we have no right to question what God has made, or does, or how He works. Whether it be good or bad in our limited minds, it is as it should be. I guess that is the view from eternity. But we are in time at this moment and we must do the works that he has prepared for us that we should walk in them. I suspect at the end of our works if we have done them well and with a joyful demeanor, we will yet be thanking Him. rather than Him thanking us. So in conclusion I would guess that we are being judged for what we did with what He gave us.

Perhaps a little tweaking in the done in joyful demeanor to done in Spirit and the joyful demeanor is a resulting fruit of such doing... Always in Spirit we shall with His Spirit have thanksgiving to God for all that we enjoy is given us so that we may glory in Him!

I believe you are correct about the responsibility of what we are given! For this truth attached throughout Scripture- all have being as debt to God Who has brought all into the place to glory in Him and only two responses are possible Yes or No! Love, Steven

Enoob57. I am grateful for your tweaking, you are correct in how it should have been said. That actually is a pretty big mistake, now that I look at it. As for the rest of your post, I am in awe of your writing. I've told you this before and you basically said I was kissing your butt. BUT, as it doesn't matter what you are going to think of me, I'm going to say it anyway. Most everything you say is like a very precise objective view of the way things are, expressed very eloquently. You say so much with so little words. Almost every term was relative to God not to man. I don't think I can see any semantics in almost anything you said. You speak of the absolute and don't stray in circumference.

If what you say is your experience, then you know what we're all to truly be sorry for, and the cause of vanity iniquity and sin. And if so, you know we are sorry for ever thinking He could be anything but trustworthy and He is Holy and Holiness is in Him. Such is the information that changes a man.

The only purely subjective perspective was at the last when you said, "only two responses are possible Yes or No! I'm not sure if you mean yes\no to the responsibility to use what He gives us or yes\no to ackowledging His Glory. I am not comfortable with no to God and yes to God. It is no different than good and evil. No to God, or yes to God in my mind lessens His Glory, since I began in No, and could but only say no without His Grace.

So I would say to you, I was very pleased that you said this: "literaly worship is formed in me by Who He IS". This is precisely why I know that He changes a man through the knowledge of Himself. No man who truly sees God says no, for he knows he is void without. Such is the joy of seeing that brings forth praise not "No"... There is only One True God and no choice wherein a man could boast. And as God has chosen to reveal Himself to the lowly, to put to nought the high, so that mountains are made valleys, it cannot be said that there is something in man that chooses God that He did not put there to quicken, even as He draws praise out of the mouths of babes and hides from the learned and scholarly. In Him is where we lose ourself so we can find ourselves.

[childeye]

In my sinful, unregenerate state, I exercised the free will I was born with to receive Jesus' sacrifice for my sin. My will was not bound and chained. It was free, given to me as a creation of God.

Arguing this again in another thread is arduous and unnecessary.

Floating axe you already admitted that to you free will is simply being alive. So you are quite right that it is futile to tell you that some people have enslaved wills since they would be dead. Unless of course you are willing to admit that some people are walking dead.

Everyone who is among the 'walking dead', which the Bible describes as reprobate, have had a free will up until they exercised it against the free offer of salvation.

Well this is what I mean by such a contradictory term as free will. Now you say all those who have excercised it against the free offer don't have free wills. Yet Paul was once Saul who excercised it against the free offer. So he therefore could not have believed via free will according to your own logic. Moreover these people that you say have lost their freewills, are they now enslaved wills? For they certainly have wills. More proof that the term free will, the noun as an absolute doesn't exist.

Yes, everyone is born with free will. Everyone believes in Jesus Christ does so by the use of their God-given free will. We choose life over death.

Reprobates are locked in by their choice. They will not be free. However, God is pretty much the only one who knows who these people are, except that he may give some of us the power of discernment concerning them.

We choose life over death is like saying I choose heaven over hell. It seems to me anyone with any lick of sense would do the same. How can you say these reprobates were not once us?

[Floatingaxe]

In my sinful, unregenerate state, I exercised the free will I was born with to receive Jesus' sacrifice for my sin. My will was not bound and chained. It was free, given to me as a creation of God.

Arguing this again in another thread is arduous and unnecessary.

Floating axe you already admitted that to you free will is simply being alive. So you are quite right that it is futile to tell you that some people have enslaved wills since they would be dead. Unless of course you are willing to admit that some people are walking dead.

Everyone who is among the 'walking dead', which the Bible describes as reprobate, have had a free will up until they exercised it against the free offer of salvation.

Well this is what I mean by such a contradictory term as free will. Now you say all those who have excercised it against the free offer don't have free wills. Yet Paul was once Saul who excercised it against the free offer. So he therefore could not have believed via free will according to your own logic. Moreover these people that you say have lost their freewills, are they now enslaved wills? For they certainly have wills. More proof that the term free will, the noun as an absolute doesn't exist.

Yes, everyone is born with free will. Everyone believes in Jesus Christ does so by the use of their God-given free will. We choose life over death.

Reprobates are locked in by their choice. They will not be free. However, God is pretty much the only one who knows who these people are, except that he may give some of us the power of discernment concerning them.

We choose life over death is like saying I choose heaven over hell. It seems to me anyone with any lick of sense would do the same. How can you say these reprobates were not once us?

Well, when we make the decision to follow Jesus Christ, we are choosing heaven over hell. People with common sense reject Jesus all the time. They are not convinced of the truth. Holy Spirit reveals and draws a person, but it is the person himself who must SURRENDER.

Luke 14:33

So then, any of you who does not forsake (renounce, surrender claim to, give up, say good-bye to) all that he has cannot be My disciple.

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,

Reprobates are those who have made a definitive decision to reject and renounce Jesus Christ. These are those who would blaspheme Holy Spirit, and are beyond redemption. None of us here in this discussion fall into that category, and never did.

[enoob57]

childeye, on 09 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:The only purely subjective perspective was at the last when you said, "only two responses are possible Yes or No! I'm not sure if you mean yes\no to the responsibility to use what He gives us or yes\no to ackowledging His Glory. I am not comfortable with no to God and yes to God. It is no different than good and evil. No to God, or yes to God in my mind lessens His Glory, since I began in No, and could but only say no without His Grace.

The Avenue in which I spoke was of this:

evil that is always at my door and the knowing of my own heart- I have not... this reality has me at such a disposition that I desperately need my Lord God Who has formed me more by the moments that pass so that the increase in need causes this to be the result

Ps 34:18

18 The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

NKJV

The Lord has spoken this to us in Love and concern

1 Cor 10:12-13

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. NKJV

Yet In Him I see my own sin daily for righteousness is purity of God the central housing of Love called Holiness- who may stand in His presence and not be filthy... I call then for my garment of Blood that My Lord Jesus has sewn for me from His Own Being.... How then my circle has come complete In Him as I wear His Life I am being forever changed into His Likeness for the glory that 'IS' due Him...

I can no longer receive to myself for this would be a no to His Glory and outward then I lift all to Him in the beauty of His Glory and Grace. I then am fulfilled in my purpose The Father's Son Glorified as prostrate before I Am... even while His Spirit radiates within me God's Joy in all this... so the eternities the substance of all my hope In Him.

childeye, on 09 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:So I would say to you, I was very pleased that you said this: "literally worship is formed in me by Who He IS". This is precisely why I know that He changes a man through the knowledge of Himself. No man who truly sees God says no, for he knows he is void without. Such is the joy of seeing that brings forth praise not "No"... There is only One True God and no choice wherein a man could boast. And as God has chosen to reveal Himself to the lowly, to put to nought the high, so that mountains are made valleys, it cannot be said that there is something in man that chooses God that He did not put there to quicken, even as He draws praise out of the mouths of babes and hides from the learned and scholarly. In Him is where we lose ourself so we can find ourselves.

It is as it should be a quote from Eleanor... He 'IS' the Least and the Great but so that Great 'IS' understood Least 'IS' His Revelation to us so that when we enter His Presence The Great of Him will indeed be our reward!

1 John 3:2-3

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

NKJV

Love, Steven

[enoob57]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then?

Love,

Steven

The answer to your question will be the same as the answer to the following:

Unregenerate humans are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

This by natural course of adhering to sins desires is by their choice! Although slaves of sin by nature and all are witness-> for all have sinned and the result of sins in the body as unfavorable outcomes to Life yet- choice 'IS' - either to repent turn from or remain in them as this process continues the harding of sin in practice becomes the abomination of God as satan's children of wrath ...

Ezra 8:22b

"The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath are against all those who forsake Him."

NKJV

Unregenerate humans are spiritually dead in sin (Mt 7:11; Eph 2:1; Ro 3:10-12).

All mankind is under the wrath of God, from which they are redeemed only through faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).

Those who do not believe in the Christ remain under God's wrath (Jn 3:36) in which they were born.

Yes this is all seen in their ability to see both good and evil 'as God' Gen 3:22 and choosing the evil instead of God... whether by natural conditions through creation Rom 1:20-21 or By Written Genesis- Revelation in His Word and The Redemption by Gospel of Christ...

So the question for you is:

In light of their condemnation (Jn 3:18) and wrath of God (Jn 3:36) from birth,

for what exactly is the Final Judgment of those who do not believe in the Christ and his saving work?

What say ye?

Love,

Eleanor

It will be the same as for their father satan... Having The Witness of God they reject God for the nothingness of the lie!

They enter in the void of no God with all their needs but no longer anything to supply them and the wrath of God no longer

needed in the eternal state of New Heaven and New Earth with us... will remain in this void as a source of a fire called a lake of fire!

Love, Steven

[childeye]

In my sinful, unregenerate state, I exercised the free will I was born with to receive Jesus' sacrifice for my sin. My will was not bound and chained. It was free, given to me as a creation of God.

Arguing this again in another thread is arduous and unnecessary.

Floating axe you already admitted that to you free will is simply being alive. So you are quite right that it is futile to tell you that some people have enslaved wills since they would be dead. Unless of course you are willing to admit that some people are walking dead.

Everyone who is among the 'walking dead', which the Bible describes as reprobate, have had a free will up until they exercised it against the free offer of salvation.

Well this is what I mean by such a contradictory term as free will. Now you say all those who have excercised it against the free offer don't have free wills. Yet Paul was once Saul who excercised it against the free offer. So he therefore could not have believed via free will according to your own logic. Moreover these people that you say have lost their freewills, are they now enslaved wills? For they certainly have wills. More proof that the term free will, the noun as an absolute doesn't exist.

Yes, everyone is born with free will. Everyone believes in Jesus Christ does so by the use of their God-given free will. We choose life over death.

Reprobates are locked in by their choice. They will not be free. However, God is pretty much the only one who knows who these people are, except that he may give some of us the power of discernment concerning them.

If everyone is born with free will the 'noun' defined as an absolute, then why are we all regarded as reprobate and vessels of wrath before coming to Christ? Why do we need to be reborn of the Spirit of God? Why not simply choose not to sin? Where does the bible ever say anyone chose Christ? Choosing with the will is a matter of mental deliberation. Believing in Christ is a matter of the heart and is not cerebral.

2 Timothy 3:7

7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[childeye]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then?

Love,

Steven

The answer to your question will be the same as the answer to the following:

Unregenerate humans are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

This by natural course of adhering to sins desires is by their choice! Although slaves of sin by nature and all are witness-> for all have sinned and the result of sins in the body as unfavorable outcomes to Life yet- choice 'IS' - either to repent turn from or remain in them as this process continues the harding of sin in practice becomes the abomination of God as satan's children of wrath ...

Ezra 8:22b

"The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath are against all those who forsake Him."

NKJV

Unregenerate humans are spiritually dead in sin (Mt 7:11; Eph 2:1; Ro 3:10-12).

All mankind is under the wrath of God, from which they are redeemed only through faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).

Those who do not believe in the Christ remain under God's wrath (Jn 3:36) in which they were born.

Yes this is all seen in their ability to see both good and evil 'as God' Gen 3:22 and choosing the evil instead of God... whether by natural conditions through creation Rom 1:20-21 or By Written Genesis- Revelation in His Word and The Redemption by Gospel of Christ...

So the question for you is:

In light of their condemnation (Jn 3:18) and wrath of God (Jn 3:36) from birth,

for what exactly is the Final Judgment of those who do not believe in the Christ and his saving work?

What say ye?

Love,

Eleanor

It will be the same as for their father satan... Having The Witness of God they reject God for the nothingness of the lie!

They enter in the void of no God with all their needs but no longer anything to supply them and the wrath of God no longer

needed in the eternal state of New Heaven and New Earth with us... will remain in this void as a source of a fire called a lake of fire!

Love, Steven

Steven, I don't mean to go off topic, but how can Satan be the source of the fire when he is to be thrown into it?

[enoob57]

The foolishness of taking our minds limitations and expounding upon the intricacies of God's Trophy and complete perfection The Bride for His Son...

Here is the harm of Calvinism:

God is Perfect and all His Ways are Perfect... YES?

So if God's Sovereignty causes as all to be under His Will and man has no choice as purported...

What exactly is the Judgment Seat of Christ for and the Great White Throne of judgment... God is not bringing Himself to

judgment is He? These are end events where man answers for God then?

Love,

Steven

The answer to your question will be the same as the answer to the following:

Unregenerate humans are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

This by natural course of adhering to sins desires is by their choice! Although slaves of sin by nature and all are witness-> for all have sinned and the result of sins in the body as unfavorable outcomes to Life yet- choice 'IS' - either to repent turn from or remain in them as this process continues the harding of sin in practice becomes the abomination of God as satan's children of wrath ...

Ezra 8:22b

"The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath are against all those who forsake Him."

NKJV

Unregenerate humans are spiritually dead in sin (Mt 7:11; Eph 2:1; Ro 3:10-12).

All mankind is under the wrath of God, from which they are redeemed only through faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18).

Those who do not believe in the Christ remain under God's wrath (Jn 3:36) in which they were born.

Yes this is all seen in their ability to see both good and evil 'as God' Gen 3:22 and choosing the evil instead of God... whether by natural conditions through creation Rom 1:20-21 or By Written Genesis- Revelation in His Word and The Redemption by Gospel of Christ...

So the question for you is:

In light of their condemnation (Jn 3:18) and wrath of God (Jn 3:36) from birth,

for what exactly is the Final Judgment of those who do not believe in the Christ and his saving work?

What say ye?

Love,

Eleanor

It will be the same as for their father satan... Having The Witness of God they reject God for the nothingness of the lie!

They enter in the void of no God with all their needs but no longer anything to supply them and the wrath of God no longer

needed in the eternal state of New Heaven and New Earth with us... will remain in this void as a source of a fire called a lake of fire!

Love, Steven

Steven, I don't mean to go off topic, but how can Satan be the source of the fire when he is to be thrown into it?

It is the wrath of God that remains behind that flames the eternal torment of burning in flames

Ps 21:8-9

8 Your hand will find all Your enemies;

Your right hand will find those who hate You.

9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;

The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath,

And the fire shall devour them.

NKJV