The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest shiloh357]

As for Shiloh357, I stand by everything I said. I don't agree with your position that I am taking scriptures dealing with service and making them about salvation.

Are you kidding??? You are the one who does it the most. Romans 9 has nothing to with salvation.

I believe you are wrong. Take for example when Paul spoke of being in danger of being a castaway. I utterly reject the idea that he was speaking of losing his ministry. He was clearly speaking of losing his salvation.

The context is about preaching the Gospel. Paul is talking about keeping himself discplined for the sake of not invalidating His preaching. There IS NOTHING in that chapter that has anything to do with salvation and I defy you to prove otherwise. Paul is not talking about trying to stay saved. He is talking about the virtue of having a life that does not discredit the Gospel message and bring a reproach upon his ministry. You will not find ANYONE with any credibility anywhere that attributes that chapter to a discussion on salvation. It is clearly discussing service and there is NO other way to correctly understand it whatsoever. You have to take one verse, rip it from its context in order to get your works-based salvation theology out of it.

As for Adam, there is no question in my mind that God knew Adam would fall before he fell. He placed him in the garden with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, knowing he would eat of that fruit. He already had planned for how he would deal with the sin problem after it happened. Just because the Bible doesn't come out and say, "God knew it would happen," or "it was God's will that it occur," doesn't mean that was not the case. No, I can't prove it, but you can't prove that is not the case.

LOL, I am not arguing that God didn't know Adam would sin. I said that there is nothing to indicate that God devised a plan where Adam would sin. God did not engineer the fall of man. He did not purpose or cause it to happen in way shape or form.

There are just some things that become apparent if you spend enough time in the Bible, and you can clearly see that nothing can happen if God doesn't want it to.

Really??? So if some man rapes and murders a 14 year old girl, God wanted it to happen since HE allowed it to happen??? Again, allowing something to happen is not the same as causing or willing it. God allows people to go to hell. He doesn't cause them to, and there is NOTHING in the Bible that says otherwise. The fact that you can't realy provide anything in way of a Scriptural defense only demonstrates the accuracy of my position and the utter falseness of yours.

He is in complete control of his creation. If you don't believe that is the case, that is fine with me. I don't expect to convince you otherwise, and you are not convincing me I am wrong. In reality, I don't think it makes that much difference if we disagree. It is nothing more than a theological debate to me.

You are trying to refute what I have not said...

[nChrist]

SALVATION is a word that shouldn't need any adjectives before it like "true" or "real", but there are false professors. I'm only going to use one of those adjectives once in this post, and you can assume that I mean "TRUE SALVATION" with every mention of the word Salvation.

Salvation is a supernatural act accomplished by God. A person is born again from above, becoming a new creation in Christ. The Holy Spirit of God indwells the heart of the new believer, SEALING it as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ. The Promises of God have been given to this new believer, and those Promises will be kept. So, the new believer has been bought with a Precious Price beyond human imagination and is no longer their own. That PRICE is the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, and He completed the WORK of Salvation most perfectly and completely. Salvation is a once in a lifetime event, and it is ETERNAL. Thankfully, we don't depend on ourselves or any other man for Salvation or to maintain Salvation. Instead, we DEPEND on the SOURCE who made us a NEW CREATION - GOD. GOD never fails and can't LIE, so we have Eternal Security in the Promises of God. Said another way that means exactly the same thing - ONCE SAVED - ALWAYS SAVED.

The following is a repost that has not been refuted in any way. It can't be refuted:

OSAS - Once Saved - Always Saved - TRUE! I am saved FOREVER - have ETERNAL LIFE - and have ETERNAL SECURITY. The only questions are am I TRULY SAVED and do I have the Holy Spirit of God Living in my heart? YES! There's only ONE way to be TRULY SAVED - GOD HAS TO DO IT - He makes the new believer a new creature - a rebirth from above - and the Holy Spirit of God indwells the heart - SEALING it as a purchased POSSESSION of GOD. The new believer is quickened (translated) into Christ - His Body. We're talking about the WORKS AND PROMISES OF GOD - not man. I hope that those reading this at least know that GOD ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES!

Ephesians 2:1-7 KJV And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Most of the following questions are easy, but some appear not to know. In case someone wants to know, I'm not a Calvinist - nor are these arguments based on Calvinism. Regardless, God knows them who are HIS before the foundation of the world.

What is Eternal Life? Doesn't this mean to live forever?

Is there any such thing as Eternal Life? YES, God says so!

Who gives Eternal Life? God - by His Promises.

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 KJV 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Is it God that gives Eternal Life and does God mean it? God gives His Promise of Eternal Life at the moment of Salvation. So, it stands to reason that if a man has Eternal Life - he is Saved Forever. The two go together. Trying to separate them leads to error and mishandling of God's Word. Separating the two would mean that you have to delete anything having to do with Eternity from the Holy Bible. One either has Eternal Life - that's FOREVER - or they don't - that's LOST.

John 10:28-30 KJV And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Is Salvation on the installment plan with a repossession clause? NO!

Is Salvation a GIFT, or does man have to pay something for it? Surely you know that Salvation is a GIFT that can't be purchased - isn't deserved - can't be earned - must be given by the GRACE of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If Salvation requires PAYMENTS by man, what does man have of any worth for the PAYMENT? Absolutely Nothing!

Are all men sinners - including those who have been Saved? YES!

Has any man ever been Saved by the LAW? NO!

King David was born and lived under the Law - and he committed a death penalty offense - adultery. Was King David disqualified because of this horrible sin? Keep in mind this was under the Law before the Cross. The answer is NO!

Saved or not - does man have any righteousness of his own? NO! Didn't God say that our righteousness is as filthy rags?

Is any man capable of living a holy life without sin? NO! So, if sin disqualifies a man, all men are disqualified and NONE are fit for Salvation.

What is the one word that is accounted unto man as righteousness? FAITH!

Romans 3:27-28 KJV Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In this Age of Grace, what are the requirements for Salvation? Forget about trying to add good works and works of the Law. Anyone should know better than this if they have a beginning understanding of Jesus Christ and the Cross.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who redeems us, justifies us, sanctifies us, and makes us fit to become partakers with the Saints in LIGHT? Forget about yourself and other men - it's CHRIST - NO OTHER.

Narrow the argument to Salvation - NOT works for rewards, NOT exhortations for Christian living, NOT living testimony before men, NOT quantity/quality of daily fellowship with God, and NOT anything else that will blur your vision of the single topic in question - SALVATION.

1 John 5:11-13 KJV And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:4-5 KJV For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 3:19-28 KJV Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Colossians 1:12-13 KJV Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:1-2 KJV There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:38-39 KJV For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Philippians 1:5-6 KJV For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 KJV 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:1-2 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This issue has been "what if'd" to death, and many of the arguments don't pertain to Salvation at all. If you disagree, so be it.

_____________________________________________________________

So, if you are Saved, you are saved forever and belong to God. You need to give thanks to God for His unspeakable GIFT.

[JohnD]

The only uncertainty in OSAS is if the subject is saved in the first place.

Matthew 7:21-27 (NIV)

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.

26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Matthew 13:4-9 (NIV)

4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.

6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.

8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

Matthew 13:18-23 (NIV)

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

1 John 2:18-19 (NIV)

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They were never saved in the first place.

When one is truly saved...

John 10:28-29 (NIV)

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NIV)

5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Jeremiah 32:40 (NIV)

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

1. Can't be snatched away.

2. Can't sin your way out of salvation.

3. Will not turn away from salvation.

So...

Once you ARE saved, you are always saved. And scriptures that "seem" to say otherwise must be interpreted through these factual scriptures.

AMEN BROTHER. Scripture is VERY clear. If you fall away, you were NOT saved to begin with. OSAS is 100% scriptural, and people who say it isn't are arguing with God and scripture, not man. They will explain to God why they opposed such a very clear doctrine. Many on here have claimed OSAS is not real, however I have not seen ONE SINGLE person even attempt to address the DOZENS of scriptures that clearly teach it. OSAS opponents seem to simply IGNORE scripture and think if they say something long enough and can trick enough people, that will somehow make it true. Let us pray for the OSAS opponents and ask God to open their eyes to the TRUTH.

The question isn't whether or not a person who belongs to God can lose their salvation. {snip}

That is PRECISELY the question!

Once SAVED...

Always SAVED

Look at all the cyber ink that has been spilled trying to debate what is so plainly assured in scripture (the scriptures above I cited). The conclusion I came to is this, posters who keep bickering about this either disbelieve the Bible, or they just want to argue, or they do just what you did and say OSAS is no about being always saved once you are saved... Huh? Then what are we talking about ???

My gosh!

[~candice~]

Actually it isn't the entirety of the question.

One can be permanently saved from God's perspective, but be backslidden and living in the mire to such an extent, and quell the voice of the Spirit within them so much, that they have no personal assurance of their own salvation.

If ES is preconditioned on being continually faithful, then the assurance of those who are not continually faithful must be in question. Sorry I just think the topic is more complicated than "OSAS".

[Guest shiloh357]

One can be permanently saved from God's perspective, but be backslidden and living in the mire to such an extent, and quell the voice of the Spirit within them so much, that they have no personal assurance of their own salvation.

Yes but that doesn't mean they are not saved. Whether someone "feels" saved is not really the issue, per se. One may not feel assured but still be saved. That is because God keeps His promises and is faithul even when we are not. If assurance was only there when felt it, we would be in a really big mess.

If ES is preconditioned on being continually faithful, then the assurance of those who are not continually faithful must be in question.

It is not pre-conditioned on beng faithful. That would be salvation by works. ES is for those who have genuinely trusted in Christ. If someone is a genuine beleiver it will be borne out in ther faithfulness to God. ES is the promise of God to those who are genuine believers. It is His grace that keeps us when we do fall. If grace were only for perfect people who never stumble, never fall in times of discouragement and weakness, we would have no salvation at all. Grace doesn't overlook sin. It forgives it and it picks us up and helps get back on track.

God is not going to ever throw away those who have truly trusted in him.

[~candice~]

One can be permanently saved from God's perspective, but be backslidden and living in the mire to such an extent, and quell the voice of the Spirit within them so much, that they have no personal assurance of their own salvation.

Yes but that doesn't mean they are not saved. Whether someone "feels" saved is not really the issue, per se. One may not feel assured but still be saved. That is because God keeps His promises and is faithul even when we are not. If assurance was only there when felt it, we would be in a really big mess.

Yes but that's my point! There are two different threads in this discussion, one about eternal salvation, the other about assurance of that salvation.

If ES is preconditioned on being continually faithful, then the assurance of those who are not continually faithful must be in question.

It is not pre-conditioned on beng faithful. That would be salvation by works. ES is for those who have genuinely trusted in Christ. If someone is a genuine beleiver it will be borne out in ther faithfulness to God. ES is the promise of God to those who are genuine believers. It is His grace that keeps us when we do fall. If grace were only for perfect people who never stumble, never fall in times of discouragement and weakness, we would have no salvation at all. Grace doesn't overlook sin. It forgives it and it picks us up and helps get back on track.

God is not going to ever throw away those who have truly trusted in him.

OK I phrased it wrong. ES is for those who have genuinely trusted in Christ and therefore will remain faithful. The reality is that this precondition is a big deal, because how are you sure you have met this precondition??? When you fall hard, deeply, doubt to the point of having no visible faith anymore... are you still assured you are a genuine Christian?

IF (and not by big IF) you could have 100% assurance that you were a genuine Christian, I'd agree you could then have assurance of salvation. But given the bible talks about those who did think they were Christians and just turned out to be religious, I think that is a tough ask.

And for what it's worth, I am not one of those who says salvation is lost because of sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

OK I phrased it wrong. ES is for those who have genuinely trusted in Christ and therefore will remain faithful. The reality is that this precondition is a big deal, because how are you sure you have met this precondition??? When you fall hard, deeply, doubt to the point of having no visible faith anymore... are you still assured you are a genuine Christian?

Assruance comes from the Bible, not from how feel about myself. I have assurance because the Bible says I do and God doesn't lie. How would you feel if your husband woke up one morning and said that he felt like the two of you needed to go through another wedding because he just didn't feel married any more??? He is married despite what he feels is the case, right? Faith comes from the word of God.

IF (and not by big IF) you could have 100% assurance that you were a genuine Christian, I'd agree you could then have assurance of salvation. But given the bible talks about those who did think they were Christians and just turned out to be religious, I think that is a tough ask.

The problem with that is that my assurance is not derived from what I do or don't do. My asurance is derived from the promises of God. Religious people are big on relgion. It is not hard task at to differentiate between religion and genuine trust in Christ. Religious people tend to be all about externalities and tend to be uncomfortable when spiritual matters are being discussed. They tend to view genuine followers of Jesus as being fanatics. They also tend to live one way at church and another way during the week.

And for what it's worth, I am not one of those who says salvation is lost because of sin.

I realize that.

[~candice~]

OK I phrased it wrong. ES is for those who have genuinely trusted in Christ and therefore will remain faithful. The reality is that this precondition is a big deal, because how are you sure you have met this precondition??? When you fall hard, deeply, doubt to the point of having no visible faith anymore... are you still assured you are a genuine Christian?

Assruance comes from the Bible, not from how feel about myself. I have assurance because the Bible says I do and God doesn't lie. How would you feel if your husband woke up one morning and said that he felt like the two of you needed to go through another wedding because he just didn't feel married any more??? He is married despite what he feels is the case, right? Faith comes from the word of God.

IF (and not by big IF) you could have 100% assurance that you were a genuine Christian, I'd agree you could then have assurance of salvation. But given the bible talks about those who did think they were Christians and just turned out to be religious, I think that is a tough ask.

The problem with that is that my assurance is not derived from what I do or don't do. My asurance is derived from the promises of God. Religious people are big on relgion. It is not hard task at to differentiate between religion and genuine trust in Christ. Religious people tend to be all about externalities and tend to be uncomfortable when spiritual matters are being discussed. They tend to view genuine followers of Jesus as being fanatics. They also tend to live one way at church and another way during the week.

And for what it's worth, I am not one of those who says salvation is lost because of sin.

I realize that.

Shiloh... I'm not relying on feelings... I am pointing out that for some people, the way they lives their life DOES make it hard for them to know if they are a genuine Christian, and thus, whether ES can rightfully be applied to them. The uncertainty here is not about ES but about whether the precondition of ES has been met. The promises of God written in the bible are only for believers... so there is always that question of .... am I really a believer?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh... I'm not relying on feelings... I am pointing out that for some people, the way they lives their life DOES make it hard for them to know if they are a genuine Christian, and thus, whether ES can rightfully be applied to them.

If a person claiming to be a Christian can live in sin and enjoy it, they should find it difficult to know or think they are a genuine believer. They should have some questions and doubts about the authenticity of their profession of faith.

The uncertainty here is not about ES but about whether the precondition of ES has been met. The promises of God written in the bible are only for believers... so there is always that question of .... am I really a believer?

Why do you keep using the term pre-condition??? There are no pre-conditions for ES.

[~candice~]

Shiloh... I'm not relying on feelings... I am pointing out that for some people, the way they lives their life DOES make it hard for them to know if they are a genuine Christian, and thus, whether ES can rightfully be applied to them.

If a person claiming to be a Christian can live in sin and enjoy it, they should find it difficult to know or think they are a genuine believer. They should have some questions and doubts about the authenticity of their profession of faith.

OK great, so these people, while they may actually be backslidden but saved, should rightfully have no assurance of salvation. That's all I am saying .

The uncertainty here is not about ES but about whether the precondition of ES has been met. The promises of God written in the bible are only for believers... so there is always that question of .... am I really a believer?

Why do you keep using the term pre-condition??? There are no pre-conditions for ES.

I am borrowing your term (or did you use predicated?). Same thing. You said ES is predicated on being a genuine authentic Christian who by virtue of that, remains faithful.