The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes Shiloh, you are correct that the passage in question never says those people believed because God created them to believe before they were born. It is still the case. God knows everything we will do down to the smallest detail. He was able to tell Peter he would deny him thrice. He was able to tell them that Judas would betray him. He tells us that he knew Jeremiah before he created him in the womb.

Yes, but knowing what will happen and engineering what will happen are two different things. Nothing take God by surprise but that does not mean that it happened because God chose for it to happen. God knows who will or will not be saved, but that does not mean He chose who will or will not be saved.

The Bible says Paul was a chosen vessel, and how many other Pharisees did God go to such extremes to cause them to believe? How many died in their sins, while Paul was spared?

Paul was chosen, but it doesn't say that Paul was chosen to be saved. It is referring to what God had chosen for Paul to be AFTER he was saved. Paul's chosenness pertains to service, not salvation.

I noticed that you addressed Revelations with regard to one's name being blotted out, a person who is an overcomer by the way, but you failed to address the verse I posted in the Old Testament.

It is a different context and does not apply to this discussion.

Those who endure to the end are people created to endure.

The phrase, "enduring to the end" is a phrase used by Jesus in connection to the tribulation. Those Christians who endure to the end of the tribulation will be "saved." The word saved there is a reference to preservation, not salvation from sin. Those believers who endure to the end will be preserved. If "the end" refers to death, or if it refers to enduring to end of the tribulation period, either way, those who endure to end, in whatever form that takes for them will be "saved."

There is a fine line here. Yes, we have free will, but when our creator knows what we will do when he creates us, in a way, we don't have free will.

No, that is not true. He gives you the freedom to make the decision He knows you will make. That is free will. No need to make this more complicated than it is.

[taylor30]

Though I modified my original post partially accepting OSAS and Eternal Security in that I believe in rejoicing about our Salvation in Christ and believing on his Name, but I still hold that our need to repent is of great importance. However, I’m surprised by Taylor’s writing: “Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY” (in conversation about the Prodigal Son).

Please don’t be offended by this Taylor and I know you are talking about the Prodigal Son, parable, but I feel you’re off the mark here. Yes, the prodigal son did come back but let’s not be hasty in leaving faith. I don’t think the point of the parable is in walking away and remaining saved. It is rather that if you come to or regain your good senses (repent) God will take you back. There is a chance that in walking away that you will begin to resemble this scripture: “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” Luke 6:66 This leads into another point what man knew who would leave and who would stay? Only God the Holy Trinity knew. This is a scary example of being in the midst of Christ and not fully recognizing Him. Using a label will not do the job.

I may be wrong on this one, but for me the Cross not only looks salvational but sacrificial, loving, reconciliational etc. And all these merge in a magical way. For example if we want to be Christ-like we will at one point have to show sacrifice. “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifice….” Rom 12:1 Salvation is the main point of the Cross but you may need to look more closer to find that Salvation is intertwined with other gifts and virtues. You can preach a sermon on the Cross and love. Also, don't be decieved the Cross is not only for salvation but condemnation as well (to those who ignore it). I know we'd like everything to be nice and rosey but I never thought of Salvation as a cake walk through one prism, one paradigm.

Oak

Don't worry, I am not offended. I believe it can be healthy to have difference of opinion, since it challenges us to be sure of what we believe.

We must remember that we are saved by the mercy and grace of God. We must also remember that we are not saved by works of any kind, THEREFORE we can not lose salvation by works of any kind. God is not stupid. He already knows how our lives will turn out. If we repent and ask to be forgiven, he knows if we are serious or messing with him. It would make no sense to have a God who would give salvation and then take it away again.

We must consider the possibility that a saved person can walk away. If not, we would have to admit we lose free will. Only a mindless robot cannot choose to walk away from someone. Also, how can my actions undo the work of Christ on the cross, which is what people are claiming to be possible if we can indeed lose our salvation. If I can lose my own salvation AFTER Christ died on the cross to give it to me, I have done a work more powerful than God can do.

Are you starting to realize why OSAS has to be true. Because if its not, then my salvation IS based on what I do, even though the Bible says its not. In a nutshell, if OSAS is false, then the Bible is false.

[taylor30]

Though I modified my original post partially accepting OSAS and Eternal Security in that I believe in rejoicing about our Salvation in Christ and believing on his Name, but I still hold that our need to repent is of great importance. However, I’m surprised by Taylor’s writing: “Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY” (in conversation about the Prodigal Son).

Please don’t be offended by this Taylor and I know you are talking about the Prodigal Son, parable, but I feel you’re off the mark here. Yes, the prodigal son did come back but let’s not be hasty in leaving faith. I don’t think the point of the parable is in walking away and remaining saved. It is rather that if you come to or regain your good senses (repent) God will take you back. There is a chance that in walking away that you will begin to resemble this scripture: “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” Luke 6:66 This leads into another point what man knew who would leave and who would stay? Only God the Holy Trinity knew. This is a scary example of being in the midst of Christ and not fully recognizing Him. Using a label will not do the job.

I may be wrong on this one, but for me the Cross not only looks salvational but sacrificial, loving, reconciliational etc. And all these merge in a magical way. For example if we want to be Christ-like we will at one point have to show sacrifice. “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifice….” Rom 12:1 Salvation is the main point of the Cross but you may need to look more closer to find that Salvation is intertwined with other gifts and virtues. You can preach a sermon on the Cross and love. Also, don't be decieved the Cross is not only for salvation but condemnation as well (to those who ignore it). I know we'd like everything to be nice and rosey but I never thought of Salvation as a cake walk through one prism, one paradigm.

Oak

Don't worry, I am not offended. I believe it can be healthy to have difference of opinion, since it challenges us to be sure of what we believe.

We must remember that we are saved by the mercy and grace of God. We must also remember that we are not saved by works of any kind, THEREFORE we can not lose salvation by works of any kind. God is not stupid. He already knows how our lives will turn out. If we repent and ask to be forgiven, he knows if we are serious or messing with him. It would make no sense to have a God who would give salvation and then take it away again.

We must consider the possibility that a saved person can walk away. If not, we would have to admit we lose free will. Only a mindless robot cannot choose to walk away from someone. Also, how can my actions undo the work of Christ on the cross, which is what people are claiming to be possible if we can indeed lose our salvation. If I can lose my own salvation AFTER Christ died on the cross to give it to me, I have done a work more powerful than God can do.

Are you starting to realize why OSAS has to be true. Because if its not, then my salvation IS based on what I do, even though the Bible says its not. In a nutshell, if OSAS is false, then the Bible is false.

Let me ask you a question. It says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You say that if OSAS is false, the Bible is false. The Bible says people that commit these sins "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." If you have a Christian and they are fornicating, and they occassionally mess around with married people, committing adultery, and they are drunk on the weekend, and covet other people's possessions, will they go to heaven, simply because they can point to a day where they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? Lets suppose they lived like a born again creature for 20 years, and then went back in sin, will they inherit the kingdom of God if they die while committing adultery? If they will inherit the kingdom of God, wouldn't that make the Bible false?

It is interesting how you twisted that scripture, because if you had simply read the very next verse, you would not have needed to ask your question. In verse 11 Paul said the people of the church WERE those kind of sinners, AND that they HAVE been saved and washed in the blood of Christ, AND sancitified. Clearly saved people did commit those sins, but where in scripture does it say that a saved person can't sin? IT DOESN'T. If we have to constantly worry that when we sin we will lose our salvation, we will be living in a constant state of fear. That does not sound like the God I read about in the scriptures. REMEMBER, the Bible says in many spots that it is GOD himself who secures our salvation. It is not our job, and God doesn't lie. He promises that we cannot lose salvation. Since the Bible is correct and God cannot lie, OSAS IS THE TRUTH.

[Littlelambseativy]

Though I have not read all the posts from the beginning I cannot see how you can deny the very words of the One we serve Jesus. These words He spoke to the Father in prayer in the garden of Gethsemane the night He was betrayed. Read them in John 17 and you will have your answer for OSAS.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[b] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

1 Corinthians 10:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

[Littlelambseativy]

Though I have not read all the posts from the beginning I cannot see how you can deny the very words of the One we serve Jesus. These words He spoke to the Father in prayer in the garden of Gethsemane the night He was betrayed. Read them in John 17 and you will have your answer for OSAS.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[b] that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

1 Corinthians 10:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

This is speaking of those who were predestined by God to be saved. They were chosen by the Father, and given to Jesus. No, they won't lose their salvation, because it was never their decision in the first place. God created them to be saved, so he knew they would never turn away from him. Those who were not created to be saved will ultimately turn back and be lost. It is not so much that someone can lose salvation, but you have no way of being sure what people were chosen by God to be saved? This is where everyone is messing up. People who continue or return to sin won't inherit the kingdom of heaven, but they were never really saved. The OSAS crowd is wrong when they claim that you simply pray a prayer, get saved, and can get up and live any way they want and make it to heaven. That is completely unbiblical. Those who say the truly saved won't keep sinning are correct, but the reason they won't keep sinning is because they are those chosen by God for salvation.

It's not that the truly saved do not sin - we are all sinners saved by Grace, washed in the blood of Jesus our Lord and Saviour. The difference is that those who are true Christians, when they sin they are convicted of the sin and ask for forgiveness and are forgiven otherwise the words of Christ as in the above are totally false and they are not.

There are Christians in name only. They go to church, give, take part in helping in the church but have they truly asked Jesus into their hearts and do they ask forgiveness when they do wrong? They there are those who call themselves Christian but continue with the life of the sinner doing the things that they 'enjoy'.

These are the ones who during the parable of the wedding feast come dressed in wedding robes but are not recognized and are thrown out into everlasting darkness. They have never truly asked Jesus into their lives and live for Him but live for themselves and the impression that they can leave of piety.

[taylor30]

Though I modified my original post partially accepting OSAS and Eternal Security in that I believe in rejoicing about our Salvation in Christ and believing on his Name, but I still hold that our need to repent is of great importance. However, I’m surprised by Taylor’s writing: “Salvation is secure, NO MATTER WHAT, EVEN IF WE WALK AWAY” (in conversation about the Prodigal Son).

Please don’t be offended by this Taylor and I know you are talking about the Prodigal Son, parable, but I feel you’re off the mark here. Yes, the prodigal son did come back but let’s not be hasty in leaving faith. I don’t think the point of the parable is in walking away and remaining saved. It is rather that if you come to or regain your good senses (repent) God will take you back. There is a chance that in walking away that you will begin to resemble this scripture: “After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” Luke 6:66 This leads into another point what man knew who would leave and who would stay? Only God the Holy Trinity knew. This is a scary example of being in the midst of Christ and not fully recognizing Him. Using a label will not do the job.

I may be wrong on this one, but for me the Cross not only looks salvational but sacrificial, loving, reconciliational etc. And all these merge in a magical way. For example if we want to be Christ-like we will at one point have to show sacrifice. “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifice….” Rom 12:1 Salvation is the main point of the Cross but you may need to look more closer to find that Salvation is intertwined with other gifts and virtues. You can preach a sermon on the Cross and love. Also, don't be decieved the Cross is not only for salvation but condemnation as well (to those who ignore it). I know we'd like everything to be nice and rosey but I never thought of Salvation as a cake walk through one prism, one paradigm.

Oak

Don't worry, I am not offended. I believe it can be healthy to have difference of opinion, since it challenges us to be sure of what we believe.

We must remember that we are saved by the mercy and grace of God. We must also remember that we are not saved by works of any kind, THEREFORE we can not lose salvation by works of any kind. God is not stupid. He already knows how our lives will turn out. If we repent and ask to be forgiven, he knows if we are serious or messing with him. It would make no sense to have a God who would give salvation and then take it away again.

We must consider the possibility that a saved person can walk away. If not, we would have to admit we lose free will. Only a mindless robot cannot choose to walk away from someone. Also, how can my actions undo the work of Christ on the cross, which is what people are claiming to be possible if we can indeed lose our salvation. If I can lose kt own salvation AFTER Christ died on the cross to give it to me, I have done a work more powerful than God can do.

Are you starting to realize why OSAS has to be true. Because if its not, then my salvation IS based on what I do, even though the Bible says its not. In a nutshell, if OSAS is false, then the Bible is false.

Let me ask you a question. It says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You say that if OSAS is false, the Bible is false. The Bible says people that commit these sins "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." If you have a Christian and they are fornicating, and they occassionally mess around with married people, committing adultery, and they are drunk on the weekend, and covet other people's possessions, will they go to heaven, simply because they can point to a day where they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? Lets suppose they lived like a born again creature for 20 years, and then went back in sin, will they inherit the kingdom of God if they die while committing adultery? If they will inherit the kingdom of God, wouldn't that make the Bible false?

It is interesting how you twisted that scripture, because if you had simply read the very next verse, you would not have needed to ask your question. In verse 11 Paul said the people of the church WERE those kind of sinners, AND that they HAVE been saved and washed in the blood of Christ, AND sancitified. Clearly saved people did commit those sins, but where in scripture does it say that a saved person can't sin? IT DOESN'T. If we have to constantly worry that when we sin we will lose our salvation, we will be living in a constant state of fear. That does not sound like the God I read about in the scriptures. REMEMBER, the Bible says in many spots that it is GOD himself who secures our salvation. It is not our job, and God doesn't lie. He promises that we cannot lose salvation. Since the Bible is correct and God cannot lie, OSAS IS THE TRUTH.

I didn't twist that passage at all, because even you admit that Christians do commit those kind of sins, yet the Bible says that those who do them won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. It doesn't say , "they won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven unless they had a born again experience in their past." OSAS IS A LIE, at least in the way you teach it.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presense only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. PHIL 2:12

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. ECC 12:13,14

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Expecting us to fear God sounds just like the God I read about in scripture, and this is just a drop in the bucket. The Bible doesn't teach OSAS.

Well, I hope you realize that by what you just said, NO ONE will be in Heaven. You just said that NO ONE who commits those sins will be in Heaven, yet ALL PEOPLE commit those sins. Therefore by your logic, no one can go to Heaven.

I suppose also that Paul was lying when he clearly assured fellow Christians who HAD committed those sins that they were saved. Notice he didn't warn them they had better be,good or they would lose their salvation. In fact, in the 13 Bible books he wrote, he NEVER ONCE told anyone they could lose their salvation.

As far as your belief in a fearful God, remember that scripture says God did not give us a spirit of fear.

Romans 8:15

2 Timothy 1:7

Besides that, the gospels I read do not show a Jesus running around trying to scare everyone. They show a Jesus who showed love and compassion to everyone, and told us to do the same.

[nChrist]

Butero

This is speaking of those who were predestined by God to be saved. They were chosen by the Father, and given to Jesus. No, they won't lose their salvation, because it was never their decision in the first place. God created them to be saved, so he knew they would never turn away from him. Those who were not created to be saved will ultimately turn back and be lost. It is not so much that someone can lose salvation, but you have no way of being sure what people were chosen by God to be saved? This is where everyone is messing up. People who continue or return to sin won't inherit the kingdom of heaven, but they were never really saved. The OSAS crowd is wrong when they claim that you simply pray a prayer, get saved, and can get up and live any way they want and make it to heaven. That is completely unbiblical. Those who say the truly saved won't keep sinning are correct, but the reason they won't keep sinning is because they are those chosen by God for salvation.

This is where you are messing up. There are no Christians who are capable of living sinless, holy lives - nor are there any Christians with ANY righteousness of their own. By your standards, there wouldn't be any saved people, and that would include the Apostles. I must also say that in my opinion Calvinism is not Biblical, but I have no plans to debate this. Your argument fails completely with or without Calvinism.

1 John 1:8-10 ASV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[nChrist]

Butero

This is speaking of those who were predestined by God to be saved. They were chosen by the Father, and given to Jesus. No, they won't lose their salvation, because it was never their decision in the first place. God created them to be saved, so he knew they would never turn away from him. Those who were not created to be saved will ultimately turn back and be lost. It is not so much that someone can lose salvation, but you have no way of being sure what people were chosen by God to be saved? This is where everyone is messing up. People who continue or return to sin won't inherit the kingdom of heaven, but they were never really saved. The OSAS crowd is wrong when they claim that you simply pray a prayer, get saved, and can get up and live any way they want and make it to heaven. That is completely unbiblical. Those who say the truly saved won't keep sinning are correct, but the reason they won't keep sinning is because they are those chosen by God for salvation.

This is where you are messing up. There are no Christians who are capable of living sinless, holy lives - nor are there any Christians with ANY righteousness of their own. By your standards, there wouldn't be any saved people, and that would include the Apostles. I must also say that in my opinion Calvinism is not Biblical, but I have no plans to debate this. Your argument fails completely with or without Calvinism.

1 John 1:8-10 ASV If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No, we are not able to live sinless compared to a Holy God, but we can avoid wilful sins. All sins done through ignorance are automatically under the blood, just as sins that were not presumptuous wouldn't cause you to be cut off from God's people under the law of Moses. Only when those sins were brought to our attention were we required to do something. In the OT, a sacrifice was made. Under the NT, we confess our sins to God. You just posted the very scripture that shows that. The difference is between wilful sins and unintentional sins. Nobody has to commit wilful sins. Those who claim otherwise are deceiving themselves. Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The typical response from the OSAS crowd is to claim that this is speaking of those who heard the message, but rejected it, but that clearly is not true. It states in verse 29, that this is a person who was santified by God. This is not a person who simply rejected Christ. This passage makes a distinction between wilful sins and sins done through ignorance. The OSAS crowd claims there is no difference, but clearly there is. In the OT, it spoke of the difference between sins done presumptously or in ignorance. They were not treated the same, and neither are they the same under the New Covenant. The blood covering that washed away your sins initially won't automatically cover future wilful sins. You must confess them to receive forgiveness.

Read my previous post - it still applies quite perfectly. You would need to add to or subtract from the Holy Bible to make your argument work. I must add that your interpretation of various portions of Scripture is uniquely wrong. Back to my original post.

[unworthy2]

Eternal Security is true but it comes with conditions. We don't like conditions. We think it means you have to work for something and we realize that we cannot earn anything through our works. So instead we take away the "conditions" and try to make it so black and white that even we can't rebel, disobey, or walk away. However, sadly, that is simply not true. It is a gift in that we cannot earn it, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing required of us at all.

[Michae]

Eternal Security is true but it comes with conditions. We don't like conditions. We think it means you have to work for something and we realize that we cannot earn anything through our works. So instead we take away the "conditions" and try to make it so black and white that even we can't rebel, disobey, or walk away. However, sadly, that is simply not true. It is a gift in that we cannot earn it, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing required of us at all.

Both sides of the argument have the right scriptures for making their point but those scriptues haves to be properly divided. Soul and spirit must be divided to see when the scriotures is speaking in terms of soul or is it speaking in terms os spirit. We do have both and the honest student will have to see that the scriptures appear to contradict themselves but that is foolish the word of God has no contradictions. That is the reason for the unbelievers argument of saying the bible contradicts it self when we as believers know that it absolutly does not. Christians have to divide soul and spirit or you will sound just like a nonbeliever never coming to greater and present truth.