Most accurate Bible Translation

[Guest yod]

What is the definition of "church"? It means a specifically christian religious institution which is separate from Israel

Do you honestly think that was what the original word was intending to communicate? I think that one word has done irreparable damage actually.

I found this comment interesting. I don't see how simply using the word "church" has done irreparable damage? Those who have anti-Semitic views are simply bigots, and they seek out ways to justify those views. It can be the idea that the "Jews" killed Jesus, or something as silly as the word church instead of congregation. Those are just excuses. Most evangelical Christians love the Jewish people, and the fact the word ekklessia is translated to church wouldn't make them love the Jewish people less.

No, but it has changed the center of the universe.

The community in the scriptures never saw themselves as a new religion breaking away from what came before, nor did they see themselves as separated from Israel.

Yet in every place the word "church" is used, it implies that they did and that is what has caused irreparable damage in the attitude of christians towards all things jewish.

If you have ever heard the statement that "Jews must join the church to be saved" then you heard how this translation has affected attitudes. No, Jewish people don't need to join "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" to be saved.

It is 180 degrees backwards, the church needs to be joined to the remnant of Israel to be saved.

[Guest yod]

That is a complete misunderstanding of scripture. It goes beyond simply getting off track because of the way one word was translated.

Yes, but it is perpetrated and perpetuated by the definition of what "church" is. It is no longer "community" where we are all one with the remnant of Israel, or even each other. Now "church" has been split into 34,000 denominations.

I see the gentile believers as adopted Jews, and every believer as one in Christ.

Yes, but the concept of the Kingdom has been transferred FROM Israel to another institution by a theological device which was created by this word.

[Guest yod]

Yes, but it is perpetrated and perpetuated by the definition of what "church" is. It is no longer "community" where we are all one with the remnant of Israel, or even each other. Now "church" has been split into 34,000 denominations.

I am not arguing this point with you, but just asking. Do you really believe that if the word church was changed to community in scripture, we wouldn't have all the church splits and people would be more accepting of the Jewish people?

If we had that from the beginning? There would have been zero replacement theology churches in history.

And replacement theology is to blame for the entire history of christian persecution of jews in europe. What do you think?

[Guest yod]

Yes, but it is perpetrated and perpetuated by the definition of what "church" is. It is no longer "community" where we are all one with the remnant of Israel, or even each other. Now "church" has been split into 34,000 denominations.

I am not arguing this point with you, but just asking. Do you really believe that if the word church was changed to community in scripture, we wouldn't have all the church splits and people would be more accepting of the Jewish people?

If we had that from the beginning? There would have been zero replacement theology churches in history.

And replacement theology is to blame for the entire history of christian persecution of jews in europe. What do you think?

I think it is more complicated than one word causing the problem. I have heard those who preach replacement theology. I used to get material from a guy named Tex Marrs, who is deep into that belief. Those who hold to this notion believe that when the Jews rejected Christ, they were replaced by the gentiles. That means that Israel no longer holds a special place in the heart of God, and the church has replaced Israel. Even if you were to say the congregation had replaced Israel, you would have the same thing being taught. They really aren't going very deep into the Word to come up with this because there were a large number of Jews who accepted Christ after the resurrection, and there are Jewish Christians today. We are all one body in Christ, but to be saved, it is the gentiles becoming adopted Jews, not Jews becoming gentiles. In addition to that, God has not forsaken Israel. The Bible teaches he is going to restore it, and that the land of Israel was given to Abraham and his descendants for an eternal inheritance. That has not changed.

The thing is Yod, there is no way to know if a word change would have made a difference? I do believe that the chief reason why Israel is under non-stop persecution is because Satan hates them. The Jewish people are proof of the existence of the God of the Bible, as their very existence is traced back to God choosing to make a nation of Abraham and his offspring. Satan has been working to destroy the Jewish people almost from the very beginning.

Of course there were always those who hated Israel/Jews in high positions of the "church" (and here the word is perfectly appropriate because I'm talking about the specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel)

And it's hard to say whether their bias would have infected as many in the beginning, had the community of faith not been taught that "the church" was separated (and thus superior) from Israel. But again I ask, was the community EVER "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" before this word was used? Yes, it was...because bigots appointed themselves the early church fathers, and bestowed honor upon themselves with titles of their own making. It continued to go offtrack from then on.

Do you think that Jesus ever meant to start a new religion that was separate from Israel? Did even one of the Apostles mean to do that? That is rhetorical because I'm sure you know better. But I'd also bet that less than 2% of christians do.

And today it STILL causes serious problems because far too many christians don't know the difference between theology and scripture, and the word "church" is bursting with theological content which the scripture never say nor imply. Are we members of "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" or are we a community joined to the remnant of Israel? Those are worlds apart, and we can't be both.

I'd bet that upwards of 95% of the people here....even the ones who honor God's plan for Israel....would say they are the "church" and never disagree with that definition. That's a huge problem, my friend. It is at the very root of christian anti-semitism because it implies superiority over the jews, saved & unsaved, producing arrogance towards the natural branches. We know what happens then, right?

I would bet money that more than 95% think the jews need to join the "church" to be saved (even here), and they would have a problem with anyone saying the "church" must be joined to the remnant of Israel to be part of God's intended plan for the ages. It's as if they really believe He had to go to a Plan B when the leaders of Israel rejected Yeshua. As if that caught God by surprise?

Again, it changes the very center of the universe. You don't think that is a problem?

.

[other one]

Yes, but it is perpetrated and perpetuated by the definition of what "church" is. It is no longer "community" where we are all one with the remnant of Israel, or even each other. Now "church" has been split into 34,000 denominations.

I am not arguing this point with you, but just asking. Do you really believe that if the word church was changed to community in scripture, we wouldn't have all the church splits and people would be more accepting of the Jewish people?

If we had that from the beginning? There would have been zero replacement theology churches in history.

And replacement theology is to blame for the entire history of christian persecution of jews in europe. What do you think?

I think it is more complicated than one word causing the problem. I have heard those who preach replacement theology. I used to get material from a guy named Tex Marrs, who is deep into that belief. Those who hold to this notion believe that when the Jews rejected Christ, they were replaced by the gentiles. That means that Israel no longer holds a special place in the heart of God, and the church has replaced Israel. Even if you were to say the congregation had replaced Israel, you would have the same thing being taught. They really aren't going very deep into the Word to come up with this because there were a large number of Jews who accepted Christ after the resurrection, and there are Jewish Christians today. We are all one body in Christ, but to be saved, it is the gentiles becoming adopted Jews, not Jews becoming gentiles. In addition to that, God has not forsaken Israel. The Bible teaches he is going to restore it, and that the land of Israel was given to Abraham and his descendants for an eternal inheritance. That has not changed.

The thing is Yod, there is no way to know if a word change would have made a difference? I do believe that the chief reason why Israel is under non-stop persecution is because Satan hates them. The Jewish people are proof of the existence of the God of the Bible, as their very existence is traced back to God choosing to make a nation of Abraham and his offspring. Satan has been working to destroy the Jewish people almost from the very beginning.

Of course there were always those who hated Israel/Jews in high positions of the "church" (and here the word is perfectly appropriate because I'm talking about the specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel)

And it's hard to say whether their bias would have infected as many in the beginning, had the community of faith not been taught that "the church" was separated (and thus superior) from Israel. But again I ask, was the community EVER "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" before this word was used? Yes, it was...because bigots appointed themselves the early church fathers, and bestowed honor upon themselves with titles of their own making. It continued to go offtrack from then on.

Do you think that Jesus ever meant to start a new religion that was separate from Israel? Did even one of the Apostles mean to do that? That is rhetorical because I'm sure you know better. But I'd also bet that less than 2% of christians do.

And today it STILL causes serious problems because far too many christians don't know the difference between theology and scripture, and the word "church" is bursting with theological content which the scripture never say nor imply. Are we members of "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" or are we a community joined to the remnant of Israel? Those are worlds apart, and we can't be both.

I'd bet that upwards of 95% of the people here....even the ones who honor God's plan for Israel....would say they are the "church" and never disagree with that definition. That's a huge problem, my friend. It is at the very root of christian anti-semitism because it implies superiority over the jews, saved & unsaved, producing arrogance towards the natural branches. We know what happens then, right?

I would bet money that more than 95% think the jews need to join the "church" to be saved (even here), and they would have a problem with anyone saying the "church" must be joined to the remnant of Israel to be part of God's intended plan for the ages. It's as if they really believe He had to go to a Plan B when the leaders of Israel rejected Yeshua. As if that caught God by surprise?

Again, it changes the very center of the universe. You don't think that is a problem?

.

Yod are you saying that Jews can be saved without believing in Chirst and coming to him.

I don't see any difference in how a Jew is saved and how a gentile is saved?

[other one]

Yes, but it is perpetrated and perpetuated by the definition of what "church" is. It is no longer "community" where we are all one with the remnant of Israel, or even each other. Now "church" has been split into 34,000 denominations.

I am not arguing this point with you, but just asking. Do you really believe that if the word church was changed to community in scripture, we wouldn't have all the church splits and people would be more accepting of the Jewish people?

If we had that from the beginning? There would have been zero replacement theology churches in history.

And replacement theology is to blame for the entire history of christian persecution of jews in europe. What do you think?

I think it is more complicated than one word causing the problem. I have heard those who preach replacement theology. I used to get material from a guy named Tex Marrs, who is deep into that belief. Those who hold to this notion believe that when the Jews rejected Christ, they were replaced by the gentiles. That means that Israel no longer holds a special place in the heart of God, and the church has replaced Israel. Even if you were to say the congregation had replaced Israel, you would have the same thing being taught. They really aren't going very deep into the Word to come up with this because there were a large number of Jews who accepted Christ after the resurrection, and there are Jewish Christians today. We are all one body in Christ, but to be saved, it is the gentiles becoming adopted Jews, not Jews becoming gentiles. In addition to that, God has not forsaken Israel. The Bible teaches he is going to restore it, and that the land of Israel was given to Abraham and his descendants for an eternal inheritance. That has not changed.

The thing is Yod, there is no way to know if a word change would have made a difference? I do believe that the chief reason why Israel is under non-stop persecution is because Satan hates them. The Jewish people are proof of the existence of the God of the Bible, as their very existence is traced back to God choosing to make a nation of Abraham and his offspring. Satan has been working to destroy the Jewish people almost from the very beginning.

Of course there were always those who hated Israel/Jews in high positions of the "church" (and here the word is perfectly appropriate because I'm talking about the specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel)

And it's hard to say whether their bias would have infected as many in the beginning, had the community of faith not been taught that "the church" was separated (and thus superior) from Israel. But again I ask, was the community EVER "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" before this word was used? Yes, it was...because bigots appointed themselves the early church fathers, and bestowed honor upon themselves with titles of their own making. It continued to go offtrack from then on.

Do you think that Jesus ever meant to start a new religion that was separate from Israel? Did even one of the Apostles mean to do that? That is rhetorical because I'm sure you know better. But I'd also bet that less than 2% of christians do.

And today it STILL causes serious problems because far too many christians don't know the difference between theology and scripture, and the word "church" is bursting with theological content which the scripture never say nor imply. Are we members of "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel" or are we a community joined to the remnant of Israel? Those are worlds apart, and we can't be both.

I'd bet that upwards of 95% of the people here....even the ones who honor God's plan for Israel....would say they are the "church" and never disagree with that definition. That's a huge problem, my friend. It is at the very root of christian anti-semitism because it implies superiority over the jews, saved & unsaved, producing arrogance towards the natural branches. We know what happens then, right?

I would bet money that more than 95% think the jews need to join the "church" to be saved (even here), and they would have a problem with anyone saying the "church" must be joined to the remnant of Israel to be part of God's intended plan for the ages. It's as if they really believe He had to go to a Plan B when the leaders of Israel rejected Yeshua. As if that caught God by surprise?

Again, it changes the very center of the universe. You don't think that is a problem?

.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are all one body in Christ, but to be saved, it is the gentiles becoming adopted Jews, not Jews becoming gentiles.

That is only half correct. Gentiles do not become adopted Jews. That is nowhere in the Bible. Gentiles are the seed of Abraham, but being Jewish is never spiritualized in the Bible. The notion of "spiritual Jews" or "adopted Jews" is NEVER applied to believers in the New Testament. Words like Israel or Jew are always, without exception only ever applied to the natural descendents of Jacob.

[Guest yod]

Yod are you saying that Jews can be saved without believing in Chirst and coming to him.

I don't see any difference in how a Jew is saved and how a gentile is saved?

There is but one name under heaven by which people are saved....it ain't "church"

But for 2,000 years, Jews have been told that they have to "convert" and join "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel". That is the biggest hindrance to a worldwide revival. Romans 11:12-15

[Guest yod]

Yod are you saying that Jews can be saved without believing in Chirst and coming to him.

I don't see any difference in how a Jew is saved and how a gentile is saved?

There is but one name under heaven by which people are saved....it ain't "church"

But for 2,000 years, Jews have been told that they have to "convert" and join "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel". That is the biggest hindrance to a worldwide revival. Romans 11:12-15

Yod, thank you for taking the time to explain your position. In a way, I already understood the things you are saying, but you said it in a way where I realized I wasn't getting the full picture. Thanks again Yod. I learned something from you today.

I love how the Body works...

Thank you for being patient and kind enough to let me lay it all out there....

on we go....

[Guest]

.... are you saying that Jews can be saved without believing in Chirst and coming to him.

I don't see any difference in how a Jew is saved and how a gentile is saved?....

The Jew Can Be Saved Without Being A Member Of A Christan Church

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

Really....

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28