Are Satan and Lucifer one and the same?

[other one]

Lucifer (whom we now call Satan) declared himself the "Bearer of the Light. or "Light Bearer" as it is he that enlightened the human race through getting Eve to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which in his mind made us as gods.

His followers attribute this to him and he is considered the good guy in the universal struggle for power and dominance.

It's that evil God of Moses who wanted to keep mankind down that is the bad guy and we should follow Lucifer instead of Jehovah. Lucifer's the one who really loves us.

And the problem is that I know many people who seem intelligent that have bought into this....... and it's growing.

I don't know Hebrew, but I do know that the Greeks knew and understood this relationship and may have had a part in the translation. I also know that the "Light Bearer" "Morning Star" thing is in all the lexicons I have.

[Matthitjah]

So, all good gifts are from God, doesn't imply that God cannot create potential for evil. You haven't answered my question, so no dodging. If God creates all things, and in the beginning there was just Him, where did evil come from?

No dodging going on.

Is there going to be evil in the new heaven and the new earth?

I think you, sis, are into int Gods permissive will but what was being stated was that God created evil. Huge difference.

If He did you all will have to come up with some scriptural references and Isaiah 45:7 isn't going to cut it. You will also have to show me some precedence and example in scripture because I certainly don't see where we are going to get off by blaming God for the evil that we do.

If God created evil then we aren't to blame and the Gospel is the biggest sham in history. Might as well be a Universalist.

[Matthitjah]

When I read your link it basically said the same thing that Scofields does. It's more like "Light Bearer" or "Appointed Carrier of the Dawn."

Where is the word or attachment "bearer" or "carrier" found in the Hebrew text?

The link you gave states the word as;

<< 1965

1966. helel

1967 >>

a shining one

Original Word: הֵילֵל

Transliteration: helel

Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')

Short Definition: morning

Word Origin

from halal

Definition

a shining one

NASB Word Usage

star of the morning (1).

It goes on to link to Strongs under the Hebrew as the root word;

1984. halal

1984a >>

to shine

Original Word: הָלַל

Transliteration: halal

Phonetic Spelling: (haw-lal')

Short Definition: shine

make boast self, celebrate, commend, deal, make, foolish glory, give light, be make, A primitive root; to be clear (orig. Of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify -- (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.

It's all saying the same thing and is pretty straight forward to me.

Ben Shachar means; "son of the dawn."

The dawn brings Light.

Just because he was appointed to carry the Light as the covering cherub doesn't mean he still holds that office.

If I worked at your college as the Dean I would hold the title of Dean. However, should I disgrace myself in some despicable action I would be defrocked and no longer Dean. While I was Dean they honored me with that title. Some may still refer to me that way but I would no longer be Dean.

I see the scriptural reference as mocking his former title and office by indicating how far he had fallen.

Some might say to me mockingly, "Oh' Dean Great Educator of the masses. How far though have fallen who led young skulls full of mush into deception."

[~candice~]

So, all good gifts are from God, doesn't imply that God cannot create potential for evil. You haven't answered my question, so no dodging. If God creates all things, and in the beginning there was just Him, where did evil come from?

No dodging going on.

Is there going to be evil in the new heaven and the new earth?

I think you, sis, are into int Gods permissive will but what was being stated was that God created evil. Huge difference.

If He did you all will have to come up with some scriptural references and Isaiah 45:7 isn't going to cut it. You will also have to show me some precedence and example in scripture because I certainly don't see where we are going to get off by blaming God for the evil that we do.

If God created evil then we aren't to blame and the Gospel is the biggest sham in history. Might as well be a Universalist.

No, there is no evil in the new heaven and earth. But what conclusion are you drawing from that? God MUST have created the possibility of evil, for a purpose, for a time, there is no other option. The fact that it doesn't exist on the new heaven and earth doesn't logically conclude that He didn't create it in the first place.

Who ever said that I am blaming God? God created the ability for man to choose evil (God created free will) but man freely chooses to sin so man is responsible for his own actions.

You already know I am not a universalist so I don't know why you whipped that out, even if you did cover yourself with a cute emoticon.

[Matthitjah]

No, there is no evil in the new heaven and earth. But what conclusion are you drawing from that?

I'm getting at where we started and where we are headed.

I wasn't calling you a Universalist sis. I was just following a logical path. If God created evil then you and I aren't to blame and we'd have cause to make a case. However, I don't think that's going to fly is all.

I'm not seeing scriptural support for God creating evil. Free Will, yes. Evil is just the absence of God, but we were created for Him.Take away God and what do you have? That's why I asked about the new heaven and the new earth. God is Just, therefore, when we choose the abscence of Him in rebellion. He must and will Judge and seperate us. In fact, He is giving us what we desire.

Evil is nothing more than rejection of what is best. We choose that.

Love ya sis.

[~candice~]

Where are you suggesting evil comes from?

[Matthitjah]

Where are you suggesting evil comes from?

Evil is what you and I are when we reject God.

[~candice~]

Where are you suggesting evil comes from?

Evil is what you and I are when we reject God.

Dodge.

[Fez]

If God did not create/allow evil into the world, why then does He use it to His ends?

Evil comes primarily from satan. Not that we can blame him for our every sin.

Does God then use satan to His own ends when He desires to do so?

Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

Jdg 9:24 that the violence done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who strengthened his hands to kill his brothers.

Jdg 9:25 And the leaders of Shechem put men in ambush against him on the mountaintops, and they robbed all who passed by them along that way. And it was told to Abimelech.

[Matthitjah]

Where are you suggesting evil comes from?

Evil is what you and I are when we reject God.

Dodge.

Explain how that is a dodge.

What's the absence of Light?