GRACE - It's more than a word, can the Bible define it?

[CWJ]

Amen Blindseeker.

I think where we come short of full agreement is that I look to the NEW creature, the spirtual re-birth by the power of God that keeps us in His "undeserved favor".Jude24,25

Once TRULY saved I submit that God's power saves us, NOT our action of striving to be Christlike...although that will be a fruit of being re-born.

How can we BUT be obedient and repentant with the Holy Spirit residing and influencing us?  We have submitted to the will of the father...Phil2:13  "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

We are transformed, not loosing our free will, but having it conformed to the likeness of Christ IN us.  So we cannot by our transformed free will commit the unforgivable sin!

If one appears to bear fruit for awhile and then turns back to his vomit, then he stayed the same creature, never having TRULY been a new creature.

Peace, Carl

[Guest]

Quote: from CWJ on 4:31 pm on Mar. 29, 2002

If one appears to bear fruit for awhile and then turns back to his vomit, then he stayed the same creature, never having TRULY been a new creature.

Peace, Carl

The actual implication of the new birth is that we were once in darkness and bondage (the womb) but now we can see and have liberty (birth).

Therefore If any man is in Christ let him become a new creature by "the washing of water by the word" and " be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

2

[CWJ]

Don't leave out the all important summarizing and explanatory verse Heb6: 9..."BUT, beloved, we are persuaded BETTER things of you, and things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we thus speak."  Although the hypothetical situation is written of, it is explained that a truly saved person will not do this, for he is a new creation in Christ Jesus, created unto good works.

Salvation fruit is that of repentance and obedience which perseveres to the end!

The actual implication of the new birth is a one time birth, birthing is not an ongoing process, it happens and you are now a new creature being worked by the Creator like clay.

2Peter needs to be understood also in context of the whole chapter. This speaks about the unsaved creeping in amoung the saints, decieving, looking like good saints, then turning back to their evil ways. They gain a head knowledge, like spoken of in James2:19. But they never become truly re-born.  They escaped "pollutions of the world", this is just a fake walk, this is not a saving experience.  We are not cursed and in need of a Saviour by the pollutions of the world, but our sin nature we are born with.  They "have known the way"(vs.21) is again head knowledge like James 2:19. It doesn't say they were re-born, or believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously hanging out with the saints they will hear the gospel, but they have forsaken it, verse 15.

TRULY RE-BORN = TRULY SAVED ONCE

Peace, Carl

[Guest]

Quote: from CWJ on 9:06 pm on Mar. 29, 2002

Don't leave out the all important summarizing and explanatory verse Heb6: 9..."BUT, beloved, we are persuaded BETTER things of you, and things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we thus speak."

[CWJ]

Actually my foundation of this theology comes from Eph2:8,9,10. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus unto good works(fruit after salvation), which God before ordained that we should walk in them."

The above verses clearly show the order of progression in our good works after being saved.

Rom6:22.....to me it appears clear you are free from sin(the curse of eternal death). It appears clearly the order of fruit after salvation is in line with the same order in Eph2:8,9,10.  This is not a "first step toward" but indeed IS salvation, or the gift of eternal life. Blidseeker you keep trying to build a format of steps or works toward acheiving a gift that plainly in Eph2:8,9,10 is not earned at all.

John 8:31..."Then said Jesus to those Jews, which beleived on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (then ye are truly saved, having shown the fruit)

If all we have to do is continue on our own, then did Jesus have to die?  If we already saw that in the flesh we can't please God, then why did Jesus die? If before He died we couldn't be good enuff, then why after could we?

We can because we are IN HIm and He is IN us. It is His power that works in us to produce fruit meet for repentance.

Phil2:13..."For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Clearly we are not the power that "keeps" us in salvation:

Jude 23..."Now unto Him that IS ABLE to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."

John15;1-12.....I see that we must use other scripture here to understand this passage.

In verse 2 it appears the "in Me" means part of the "true vine" as in meaning saved. At first galnce it appears this is plain, making this a tuff spot for OSAS truth.

BUT, verse4 seems an obvious contradiction to verse 2..."Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, EXCEPT IT ABIDE IN THE VINE; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."  Here it says that the branch only bears fruit if IN THE VINE, contradicting verse 2, where all are "in the true vine". A branch that bears no fruit is never "abiding in the vine". By Matt13:8 we know that all saved bear some fruit..."But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold."

So here's where I look at Matt13:47,48...."Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away."

So this appears that ALL were in the kingdom, then cast out. We know that's not the case as some are never saved at all.(in the world as a whole)

By this we must let John15 vs. 4 be the interpreting verse as it is in line with other scriptures that explain salvation such as Eph2:8,9,10.  Can the "in ME" in verse 2 allude to the false christians amoung the saints? By that we can understand in terms of the assemblies of the body of Christ having foreign members, not really "abiding" in the vine.

Blindseeker says:

"The only sure foundation I see is obedience to Jesus Christ."

What is obedience?  It is the "act of obedience", or a work.

This totally contradicts Eph2:8,9,10.

Heb5:9...."all that obey Him"....Heb 12:2..."LOOKING UNTO JESUS the author and FINISHER of our faith"!!!!!

Blindseeker you quote the words that prove where our salvation comes from!  Jesus commands us to look to Him for our salvation! Not ourselves!  Scripture over and over proclaims the power of God that saves! Once and for all!

Eph2:8,9,10 plainly show good works after saved.

The PROFOUND truth that must be understood is the RE-BIRTH!

This enables understanding that is spiritual.....

1Cor2:12..."Now as we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that ARE FREELY GIVEN to us of God."

1Cor2:14..."But the natural man receiveth not the things of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1Cor1:16..."For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish FOOLISHNESS; but unto us which are saved it is the POWER of God."

2Tim3:7..."Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

John8:32..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Gal6:15..."For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATURE."

Again I ask where does scriptures plainly say that we become Un-Re-Born, Un-Created, Un-Dwelt once indwelt?

I strive to examine this truth with you Blindseeker out of the love of Jesus Christ and His truth of salvation.

For the one truth that sets the Gospel of Jesus Christ apart from ALL beleifs is the unconditional eternal security of the beleiver. A beleiver who has been Re-Born spiritually by the Holy Spirit.

Peace, Carl

[Guest]

Quote: from CWJ on 12:00 pm on Mar. 31, 2002

I strive to examine this truth with you Blindseeker out of the love of Jesus Christ and His truth of salvation.

Peace, Carl

Amen. I recognize that Carl and appreciate your thoroughness. I respect your standing your position (even though I do not agree) because it is rooted in your understanding and conviction of scripture.

As a building contractor, I've experienced the problems of something being wrong before the foundation and telegraphing it's way to the roof. Such is same with Christian doctrines, often the whole teaching of a matter is founded upon a concept of a well intentioned individual rather than a precept rightly divided from God's unchanging word.

It is not so much to say that these individuals were "false teachers" rather they taught truths not completely founded upon truth. (That is not to say there are no "false teachers" which should as Paul advised, be marked and avoided as such.)

I often reason this as the difference between "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" and "A Sheep in Shepherd's Clothing." The wolf of course is doing what is natural for his nature, damaging the flock. The Sheep in Shepherd's clothing however is sincerely trying to do what he believe is correct and best, but he still is not an anointed shepherd, called and enable by God for the task he is laboring in. Therefore while in some things he is correct, in other's he is sincerely wrong.

Is the "Sheep in Shepherd's Clothing" to be condemn like the "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?" No, of course not. Not unless he becomes lifted up with pride and begins to defend what he has concluded to be true when presented with the true light of God's word.

Gal 6:3 For if a man [a sheep] think himself to be something [a shepherd], when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

I am not applying this in anyway to you or me, Carl, for your Berean spirit shines in your communications. I am saying however, that I have witnessed sincere humble men, who when present with the truth, become angry, prideful, and defensive of "their belief," because receiving the truth meant they would have to accept that they were wrong for all those years . . .

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I will address Eph 2:8,9,10 later as time evades me now due to other obligations.

Peace to you and your's Brother Carl.

BlindSeeker/William Males

[CWJ]

Blindseeker...we have more in common than we knew...as I am a cabinet maker/woodworker. I also do window treatments like plantation shutters and blinds. My specialty favorite is building intricate fireplace mantels.

On the theological side we also share a commonality. I once thought that a saved person could commit the unpardonable sin, because that's what Jesus said was the ONLY unforgivable sin. I accepted that He told us ALL manner of sins would be forgiven except that one.

I went through A LOT of prayer and study for almost two years.

Finally God got it through my head that in our new creation into His child our will becomes that of the Father, as Phil2:13 attests to. Although our level of fruit bearing is different amoung beleivers, the power of God and His love never is unfaithful, keeping us from falling into condemnation.(Jude24)

Finally I'll say that if we are depending on building our own righteousness, then THAT is the foundational fault that will bring down the roof.

Rom10:3..."For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteouness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteouness of God."

1Cor3:11..."For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

1Cor3:15...."If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

The man's work toward obedience may not be accepted(flesh), but he will(spirit). You can have a low level of fruit bearing and still get in heaven. Because you have been spiritually re-born. Maybe you don't trust in your obedience, but you trust in the work and obedience of Jesus.

Peace, Carl

[Guest]

Hey Carl,

Ephesians is an interesting book. I bring that up because of your reference to Eph 2:8.9.10. But regarding the book itself, John Calvin certainly built some massive doctrines from it, (not that I would subscribe to any of them).

Let's look at Eph 1:1 -

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus."

This is a good verse. There is a Greek word in this verse that can convey many things.

The word is Strong's #2532. kai, pronounced : kay-hee'

It is apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force. It can be understood correctly as " and, also, even, so then, too, etc." It is

[CWJ]

Seems what you just posted goes along with levels of fruit bearing, which will be different amoung different believers. This is got to be due to our walk with Him.(prayer,study of scripture)

Peace,Carl

[Guest]

Quoted by CWJ

Actually my foundation of this theology comes from Eph2:8,9,10. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED in Christ Jesus unto good works(fruit after salvation), which God before ordained that we should walk in them."

The above verses clearly show the order of progression in our good works after being saved.

Rom6:22.....to me it appears clear you are free from sin(the curse of eternal death). It appears clearly the order of fruit after salvation is in line with the same order in Eph2:8,9,10. This is not a "first step toward" but indeed IS salvation, or the gift of eternal life. Blindseeker you keep trying to build a format of steps or works toward acheiving a gift that plainly in Eph2:8,9,10 is not earned at all.

Perhaps again, the questions may need to go toward defining other precepts of Christian faith. For just as we are endeavoring to biblically clarify "What is Grace" and "How it can be frustrated," we may well need to define salvation. What is it? What are we saved from? What is the good news of the gospel?

Concerning my, "trying to build a format of steps or works toward achieving a gift . . ." That is not what I am doing, regardless your perception. I am simply presenting the progression the Holy Spirit sovereignly presents in other passages of scriptures. As it says in 2 Peter 1:20, " Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

Just as you wish to interpret the passages I listed by your perception of Eph 2:8,9,10, you must also be willing to evaluate Eph 2:8,9,10 in the light of the other verses. You wish to make the one the controlling definer and have therefore set it up to be the standard whereby the rest must be brought into alinement with. On what basis can you do this? Make one passage greater than another?

Certainly, Carl, they are all in agreement, for it is the word of God. But there are multiple aspects and variables that tend to make the scriptures appear to be, perhaps, conflicting.

You stated, Carl, "Rom 6:22.....to me it appears clear you are free from sin (the curse of eternal death)."

Your identification of "sin" as "the curse of eternal death" in inaccurate. Sin is NOT death, it is disobedience to the righteous precepts and statutes of God's revealed will.

I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

"The curse of eternal death" is the consequence of, and is separate from, sin.