Unholy Trinity

[nebula]

Sorry, man, I am not following your train of thought in how that answers the question.

You asked, "why did He allow these to remain?".

The answer is, "for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,".

He allows them to remain in order to bring about the "falling away".

You honestly believe that TBN and the like are the greatest threats to the faith of Christians?

Was TBN responsible for the decline of Christendom in Europe?

[Guest man]

Sorry, man, I am not following your train of thought in how that answers the question.

You asked, "why did He allow these to remain?".

The answer is, "for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,".

He allows them to remain in order to bring about the "falling away".

You honestly believe that TBN and the like are the greatest threats to the faith of Christians?

I don't recall stating they were the "greatest threats".

Was TBN responsible for the decline of Christendom in Europe?

I'm not saying TBN is responsible for anything. The devil is the one who is responsible and the teachers who are under his influence.

[nebula]

It sounds to me like you are attributing TBN to the great falling away.

[Guest man]

It sounds to me like you are attributing TBN to the great falling away.

I'm not saying TBN is responsible for anything.

Here is your original question: "During that time when tele-evangelists were falling, why did He allow these to remain?"

I see no mention of TBN in your question. If you carefully read my response to you, you will notice no mention of TBN, other than the fact that they aren't responsible. If you want to point fingers at TBN, you're free to do that. I'm not going too.

You said "tele-evangelists". TBN isn't the only network that airs tele-evangelists.

[nebula]

It sounds to me like you are attributing TBN to the great falling away.

I'm not saying TBN is responsible for anything.

Here is your original question: "During that time when tele-evangelists were falling, why did He allow these to remain?"

I see no mention of TBN in your question. If you carefully read my response to you, you will notice no mention of TBN, other than the fact that they aren't responsible. If you want to point fingers at TBN, you're free to do that. I'm not going too.

You said "tele-evangelists". TBN isn't the only network that airs tele-evangelists.

Ummm . . . can we lay aside the semantics and get to the heart of the matter?

I was including TBN (since this is what the thread is about) when I said "these" - or the ones who run TBN, which in essence is the same lump.

When judgment came against the tele-evangelists, some fell and some remain (including the Crouch's who founded/run/operate/whatever TBN).

Why did the Lord allow these to remain?

Why was not judgment meted against them as well?

[Guest man]

When judgment came against the tele-evangelists, some fell and some remain (including the Crouch's who founded/run/operate/whatever TBN).

I don't think the devil is above condemning himself if it puts him in the position to appear righteous. I don't know about this judgment against the tele-evangelists but who's to say this judgment came from God? Satan is a liar. His soul purpose is to deceive. I think if God passed judgment on TBN, that network would be no more.

Also, TBN is a business enterprise. They're in business to make money. They're paychecks depend of viewers. If they see something that's going to hurt their ratings, they're going to eliminate that something. In just about any business, the bottom line is profit.

[wyguy]

When judgment came against the tele-evangelists, some fell and some remain (including the Crouch's who founded/run/operate/whatever TBN).

Why did the Lord allow these to remain?

Why was not judgment meted against them as well?

The Bible gives the answer, Neb.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (KJV 1 Cor. 11:19)

The NASB makes it a bit clearer: "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

God allows these false teachers to be among us so that they can be exposed - and true believers become evident by comparison.

[Rick-Parker]

It sounds to me like you are attributing TBN to the great falling away.

They are a major part of it as they broadcast around the world. But they are no "the" cause.

[enoob57]

I always found John McArthur a very confused man. Now I find he is not only a mighty poor theologian, but it is also clear he is an 'accuser of the Brethren.' Only his small wit can be offered as an excuse.

John MacArthur is not a poor theologian. He teaches sound doctrine and I agree with most of what he says. I use his commentaries ocassionally, but he has a few problems of his own. For one, you have to always remember that when he is dealing with the gifts of the Spirit, the man despises them with a passion. He has open contempt of Charasmatics and Pentecostals. I actually read in one of his commentaries, and I wish I could recall what passages I was looking into, that although people were still demon-possessed today, the Church and we, as Christians, are absolutely powerless to help those people. That isn't biblical. I agree 100% with what he says about TBN, however.

God alone can judge a man. however, i am quite suspicious of people who call themselves christian and yet will not accept 10000% what God's Word teaches. afterall, Christ IS God's living Word. if the Word of God says that God shall pour out His Holy Spirit upon all flesh in the last days, and then actually does it and we see clearly the gifts He bestows on us, as described on the day on pentecost, then how can one disagree, epecially now that we are in the last days more than ever? I don't even know the guy, and already i'm suspicious.

On Pentecost... Acts 2:1-12

2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Crowd's Response

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs

[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with warning people of the false preachers and gospel. But the people who have "turned their backs on God" were never saved to begin with. I know that this is not a OSAS thread, and I very much agree with the OP, but I think that it is important that people know that no one who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them can lose their salvation. Jesus said in John 10:29 that "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." "No one" mean not even one's self. I won't hijack this thread any more. Thanks.

Excuse me, but I've met enough people in my area who have "turned their backs on God" in the past because they got sucked into the prosperity gospel as young believers -- then lost house, car, etc. in the economic crash.

You are making a general statement about another persons faith, and that's wrong. The Lord knows them that are His. Some folks coming out of the prosperity gospel are true believers who were deceived and the Lord has used the recession/depression to break them out of that deception. I've been homeless before I came to the Lord myself, and nothing focuses the mind on what's really important than loosing everything -- except perhaps the threat of impending death . . .

How would you feel as a young believer when everything you've been taught seems to be a lie? When you loose your job, house, car, and everything else you've been told says "God is for you," etc? When you were told you could live like a king and wind up like Job?

Several folks I know the Lord has worked in their lives through "losing everything" and the fruit in their lives says they are true believers. They both were living as someone "who turned their backs on God" when I met them. What they had really turned the backs on was all the lies they had been fed by the prosperity types, not the real Gospel. One took a swing at me at the mention of Jesus because of his anger that all the "promises" made by the false teachers didn't pan out. It was over the course of about 18 months that he began to really trust the Lord again because I was able to share the truth of the Bible with him. Our pastor worked with the other fellow, and both families are now doing reasonably well.

Yes, the prosperity gospel is bad, but there are many people who are believers who come out of it broken, disillusioned, and really angry and bitter towards God. I don't know how many who come out of that are real believers, but they still need the real Jesus . . .