Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[Guest yod]

International church of Christ is a cult? Never heard that one before

Do a search for it.

I've got a friend who was in on the ground floor during the late 70s when this cult was known as "The Boston Movement". They pick on weak christians specifically (usually on a college campus) and manipulate them with "you're going to hell" tactics. A pack of them will be sent out from their "church" to a college for no other reason than to look for loners. They invite that loner to a bible study with the whole pack present and then use peer pressure of greater numbers to convince the weak christian that they are "helping" them by being a mentor. Before long, they are controlling who you see, who you talk to (including parents) and even your checkbook. It's insidious! I've known people who had to move out of their city and not leave a forwarding address to get away from them.

They also think you have to baptised into their "church" and that they are the only ones going to heaven.

It's going to be very hot where they are going, if they don't repent immediately.

[Guest shiloh357]

One thing that people are missing the fact that "baptism/baptize/baptized" is mentioned in the bible over 75 times and it is being taught that this is not a necessary part of one's salvation. Is not all of the doctrine that has been laid out for us in the gospel an necessary part of our salvation?

The problem is that the baptism is not a part of the gospel. It is our response to the gospel in obedience to the command of Christ. The gospel does not teach that a person must be baptized to be saved.

What people are doing is taking some scriptures and countering other scriptures with them.

No, I am actually working off of the Scriptures peolpe like present me, and I am putting them back in their proper context in accordance with the intent of the authors.

John the baptist paved the way of the coming of the Savior by preaching the "baptism of repentance", Jesus himself was baptized, all of the Apostles were baptized, Jesus last commission to his Apostles was to go into all the earth preaching and baptizing them saying, "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", the Apostles on the day of Pentecost told thousands to, "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sin", all through the book of Acts they are baptizing people in water, In the book of Romans it is referred to as an operation that cuts away the old man and we are raised again in the newness of life, we are to have faith in that operation, we are told, "All that have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ", we are told that, "baptism doth also now save us", etc., but after reading all of these things I ask two questions. One - Why would we not want to be baptized? Two - know that all of these are in the scriptures would we think that it doesn't really matter if we do it or not and on most cases choose not to do it?

The problem here again is your misapplication of Scripture. Being baptized into Christ is not water immersion. It is a work of the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Peter references baptism, but it is in connection with a clear conscience. Peter makes it clear that water immersion does not cleanse the flesh (which is not referring to the physical body, but of our sinful nature).

ALL, that means ALL scripture is given to us for the salvation of our souls, but people are deeming this not viable to our salvation.

Actually that is not what the Bible says about why Scripture is given to us.

Eph 2:8-9 teaches that we are saved by faith and not of works. The only place in the bible where it has the words "faith" and "only" in it is in James where it says we are NOT saved by faith only. It says our faith without works is dead. The works that we do to show our faith is our obedience in the gospel of Christ. If we really and truly believe in power of God we will do what he tells us to do.

YOu need to read your Bible. James did not say we are not saved by faith only. James was not even talking about salvation. James chapter 2 is addressing the emptiness of a profession of faith without accompanying actions. James' issue was "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do. The object James has in mind is that our works justifying us and our profession of faith in the sight of men. James said, we are not justified (before men) by faith only. In other words, it is your actions that prove and justify your claim to be Christian. James makes the point that like love, faith is operative in nature and must be evidenced by good deeds that demonstrate salvation.

Our belief and faith are to motivate us to obey the scriptures, not use faith and belief as a way to countermand obeying the scriptures

No one is saying we don't have to be obedient. We are saying that obedience is/or should be the fruit of salvation. Our works should not be done out of a motive to earn salvation, but rather they should be the product and outgrowth of the salvation we already have.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him Hebrews 5:9

If all we have to do is have faith in God to be saved then why are told in scriptures like this to study to show ourselves approved to God?

That command was given to Christians pertaining to how they should live out their salvation. It was not offered as a means of earning salvation. We study the Word because we are saved and because God has placed that desire in our heart.

There's no "faith only" here. The whole man before God is to fear him and keep his commandments. Baptism is a commandment. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him and we do this by obeying the scriptures, which are his commandments, which also includes baptism. How can we say that we are obeying God and the gospel of Christ when we choose to omit things baptism?

Copy and paste where one person has said we should omit baptism, or that it is not necessary to obey the commandment to be baptized.

You are incorrect in your responses as always.

Still waiting for you to back up your assumptions. Can you do more than blow smoke?

[Guest shiloh357]

So how many of the International Church of Christ cult have now joined our boards?

Usually they travel in pack of 10 to 15. I'm only counting 5 so far...did I miss some?

yod,

Hatefulness is unbecoming a Christian.

It is not hatefulness. It is called exposing wolves in sheeps' clothing. It is called truthfulness.

[Scare Bear]

I did not say we don't play a part in salvation.

Well then perhaps you might stop misrepresenting my comments and attributing things to me that I did not say. If you continue, I have to either conclude that you cannot read or your are doing it on purpose, which would prove that you cannnot be trusted in a debate.

Wrong. YOU penciling in that definition. The Bible makes it very clear that works are deeds we perform. Specifically we are referencing good deeds or bad deeds, things that we physically do.

But you keep saying nothing we do will save us.

I'm just using the arguments you're giving me. First you say we have nothing to do with our salvation then you say we do? Which is it?

Ok, but is not believing something you DO? Does it not take a mental effort? Technically it could be a physical process because if your brain is not working (you know, the pulses and reactions that take place in the mind that allows us to think and move) then you can't believe (or do much anything else).

No, that is not how the Bible defines false prophets. You are trying to subjectively broaden the definition of the phrase. A false prophet is someone who pretends to speak for God. They are usually leaders of cults or groups that profess themselves to be sole possessors of salvation and that no one outside their little group is saved.

The Bible never refers to the average unbeliever as a false prophet. There are deceived people who think they are Christians (such as you and eis) but are simply decieved. If I were to apply your definition of the term, I would have to conclude that you are a false prophet, when in fact your only problem is that you are not a Christian.

Maybe we should read the verses one more time and let me point out something to you... Matt. 7:21

[eis]

International church of Christ is a cult? Never heard that one before

Do a search for it.

I've got a friend who was in on the ground floor during the late 70s when this cult was known as "The Boston Movement". They pick on weak christians specifically (usually on a college campus) and manipulate them with "you're going to hell" tactics. A pack of them will be sent out from their "church" to a college for no other reason than to look for loners. They invite that loner to a bible study with the whole pack present and then use peer pressure of greater numbers to convince the weak christian that they are "helping" them by being a mentor. Before long, they are controlling who you see, who you talk to (including parents) and even your checkbook. It's insidious! I've known people who had to move out of their city and not leave a forwarding address to get away from them.

They also think you have to baptised into their "church" and that they are the only ones going to heaven.

It's going to be very hot where they are going, if they don't repent immediately.

Funny, on another thread you accused me of being a pinhead because you though I was acting as judge. In that case you managed to get the thread closed because of your hateful behavior. I guess that's your plan here.

I appreciate your intensity.

BTW, I know of the Boston movement. No, I have not ever been one of them.

Edited April 14, 2010 by eis

[RebekahDavid]

the Bible is very clear on how we are saved:

Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[Scare Bear]

(sigh) Please read what I said. Is that too much to ask???? Here let me help you:

In every biblical discussion we find in Scripture about the saints, we find that it was their works that evidenced their faith.

Except that those people did those things because they were saved. They were not saved because they visited the sick or fed the hungry and so forth. Those are things that mark the lives of beleivers not unbelievers trying to get saved.

The problem here is that you still have not addressed you know when you are saved. If salvation is predicated on works, then from one day to the next, from one deed to the next, you don't know if you have done enough OR if you have done it GOOD enough to merit salvation. You also do not know if you have done enough to offset the evil things you have done.

No one is saying you are saved because you visit the sick, or feed the hungry (or trying to obtain salvation by doing those things)... you are saved because you are obeying what God commanded you to do. If God told you to be baptized, you wouldn't be saved until you did it right? After that we are to live righteously, we are commanded to help others, not for us but because we love God and we want others to come to know and love God too.

There is no set number. You just go and do. If you can make people laugh then go and do it, bring laughter to others. If you have time to visit the sick or feed the hungry then when the opportunity comes take it. There is nowhere in the Bible it states that your good deeds counter your bad ones. When you ask forgiveness for the wrong you've done God forgives and then you go on your way to continue to do good.

And you are right "I will show you my faith by my works" but simply having it does not make one saved. Simply believing does not make one saved, you still have to obey.

[RebekahDavid]

again this what God says about it in His word

Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[RebekahDavid]

and i am still waiting for the copy and paste thank you

[eis]

and i am still waiting for the copy and paste thank you

Hi RebekahDavid - maybe it would be more fruitful to go back and read the thread. You will see that Eph 2 has been referred to many times. No one denies that we are save by grace not of works lest anyone should boast.