Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[canuckamuck]

Last week I visited a woman with leprosy but I did not do any purification ritual

Today I will eat pork and various kinds of seafood including crustaceans and mollusks.

I will continue to do many other things of this type. I am unrepentant of these things. Tell me Wolf is it possible I am saved or not?

[WolfBitn]

Look Gator... you have to believe one of 2 things... either the rich young ruler kept the law perfectly or he didnt... You said in your post from 8:52 AM

So if he kept the commandments he would be perfect... if he didnt he lacked there too. Just because Jesus saw fit not to argue with a fool doesnt mean the fool was correct

I will say this again, the 10 Commandments and The Law are not one in the same. As long as you use them interchangeably this is going to be very long discussion. You need to choose, are you talking about The Law or about the 10 Commandments.

No one has implied or said that the 10 laws are the levitical law, this is your assumption... Prove to me the 10 commandments arre NOT 10 laws... it'll be pretty hard to do when God Himself calls them laws... no more rhetoric, prove it

And how do you suppose he kept the commandments? Especially when you consider that Jesus said if we HATE we have murdered, and if we LUST we have commited adultry? Do you know of anyone who has kept the 10? Who other than Christ? To even imply someone can doesnt just border on the ridiculous, its way past the line

we are talking about the 10 Commandments that God gave Moses, not the words of Jesus. You again are using terms and ideas interchangeably that should not be. You need to make up your mind what it is we are discussing here and quit being all over the place.

No youre changing the subject. You state that you believe the rich young ruler obeyed the 10 commandments and imply he lacked nothing in them... I am challenging your statement... NO ONE has ever kept them and if they had THEY would have been the Christ...l Jesus didnt keep all the levitical law nor did he promote the keeping of it... HE DID promote and keep the 10. So... answer for a change... WHO do you know thats ever kept the 10 laws of God? (God called them statutes and ive shown the Hebrew also is properly interpreted law... im sorry if you have a problem with this fact but it doesnt change the fact that it IS in fact, a fact

Who said you did? Strawman

You did. I used wearing mixed fabric as an example of not keeping The Law and you said I would need atonement for such. You should keep up with your own arguments.

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

if you disagree tell me murder and rape and adultry and lust and greed and stealing and using Gods name in vain are acceptable to God and show me from scripture that He just doesnt care if you do these things... Revelation says those who do these things are cast into the lake of fire... you DO believe this correct?

No no... this was the creation of God who called these 10 His Satutes, also properly translated 'laws'... refute this from the hebrew please, as ive shown the Hebrew to mean exactly this

Could you please provide the passage where God said "These are my 10 Statues" (or whatever word you want to use)

I already did... Gator this is part of my problem with you, you dont care to pay attention to read what someone actually says. Lets strive to do better together hows that? as brothers in Christ

as a token of good intent, i will repeat this

Deuteronomy 5

1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

4The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

5(I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,

6I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

13Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17Thou shalt not kill.

18Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19Neither shalt thou steal.

20Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Statute in the Hebrew is 'CHOQ'

Choq

1) statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due

a) prescribed task

b) prescribed portion

c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve

d) prescribed due

e) prescribed limit, boundary

f) enactment, decree, ordinance

1) specific decree

2) law in general

g) enactments, statutes

1) conditions

2) enactments

3) decrees

4) civil enactments prescribed by God

So you see its properly translated as statute OR law, and is in fact translated as 'law' 4 times.

[WolfBitn]

Last week I visited a woman with leprosy but I did not do any purification ritual

Today I will eat pork and various kinds of seafood including crustaceans and mollusks.

I will continue to do many other things of this type. I am unrepentant of these things. Tell me Wolf is it possible I am saved or not?

Canuckamuck, surely you know this is not what ive been saying

What disagreement could you POSSIBLY have with the premice of this thread which is that man has ALWAYS had law, and man has ALWAYS seen grace in the transgression of these laws?

[BlindSeeker]

1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for

a law

<choq>

, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Ps 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by

a law

<choq>

?

Ps 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for

a law

<choq>

, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Verses where "choq" is translated "law." It is also frequently translated "decree" and "ordinance," both terms applicable to law.

[canuckamuck]

Last week I visited a woman with leprosy but I did not do any purification ritual

Today I will eat pork and various kinds of seafood including crustaceans and mollusks.

I will continue to do many other things of this type. I am unrepentant of these things. Tell me Wolf is it possible I am saved or not?

Canuckamuck, surely you know this is not what ive been saying

What disagreement could you POSSIBLY have with the premice of this thread which is that man has ALWAYS had law, and man has ALWAYS seen grace in the transgression of these laws?

Some of God's laws were for a certain time, some were for certain people. You need to see that when you say THE LAW has always been in place, people will reasonably expect that you are talking about the laws handed down to Moses in the wilderness. Obviously some of those laws came and went.

But you keep saying the law has always been in place and you call it things like the 'law of repent and believe', or the 10 statutes. This is very confusing language you are using. By the way nearly all Christian's are stumbling on the Sabbath day commandment.

You would be better off to say that God is same today, yesterday, and forever, and His principles and righteousness do not change.

But man has been under different conditions throughout history, so God has had appropriate rules in place for the different conditions involved. Not all of God's laws apply to all times or people, but His principles always have. And yes God has always had the capacity to give grace, this is a characteristic of love.

[BlindSeeker]

One of my favorite verses -

Ps 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me Thy law graciously.

Amen.

[WolfBitn]

Last week I visited a woman with leprosy but I did not do any purification ritual

Today I will eat pork and various kinds of seafood including crustaceans and mollusks.

I will continue to do many other things of this type. I am unrepentant of these things. Tell me Wolf is it possible I am saved or not?

Canuckamuck, surely you know this is not what ive been saying

What disagreement could you POSSIBLY have with the premice of this thread which is that man has ALWAYS had law, and man has ALWAYS seen grace in the transgression of these laws?

Some of God's laws were for a certain time, some were for certain people. You need to see that when you say THE LAW has always been in place, people will reasonably expect that you are talking about the laws handed down to Moses in the wilderness. Obviously some of those laws came and went.

But you keep saying the law has always been in place and you call it things like the 'law of repent and believe', or the 10 statutes. This is very confusing language you are using. By the way nearly all Christian's are stumbling on the Sabbath day commandment.

You would be better off to say that God is same today, yesterday, and forever, and His principles and righteousness do not change.

But man has been under different conditions throughout history, so God has had appropriate rules in place for the different conditions involved. Not all of God's laws apply to all times or people, but His principles always have. And yes God has always had the capacity to give grace, this is a characteristic of love.

I understand brother... listen this isnt directed at you, but a simple statement of my faith regarding this... i cannot and will not change what i know to suit those who dont. The 10 statutes are shown to be laws and ive made this clear for several pages that its THESE laws im referring to, not the levitical. The levitical has passed, the 10 are the ones Jesus said will NEVER pass until ALL is fulfilled.

Christians stumble thinking christinaity is a religion to itself... not even realizing that even in hte day of paul we were nothing but a sect of the jews... and if we are a ssect of the jew we should regard His law... we arent under levitical law... we ARE however condemned by the 10 and require His grace

1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law <choq>, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Ps 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law <choq>?

Ps 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law <choq>, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Verses where "choq" is translated "law." It is also frequently translated "decree" and "ordinance," both terms applicable to law.

amen... amen

[canuckamuck]

I don't think that you find many here that will disagree that the moral code that God articulated in the 10 commandments is for all time.

However, it is you that decided to give those 10 commandments/laws/statutes/rules the title of 'The Law', this is a label you alone are using, while nearly everyone else considers the term, 'The Law' to be the entirety of God's instruction to Moses, which you I understand you are calling Levitical law.

When you create your own terminology, expect that some people will want to disagree with your usage.

[BlindSeeker]

I never said any such thing and youll not be able to back this by quote... i said your IMPLICATION is that you need no blood atonement for SIN... Your stement was more than about clothing, you specificly said that you are not under the law, you are indeed bound by 10 of them and youll be judged by these 10

no, I will not be judged by these 10, that is false. No where does the Bible say that Christians will be judged by these 10.

I don't think that you find many here that will disagree that the moral code that God articulated in the 10 commandments is for all time.

However, it is you that decided to give those 10 commandments/laws/statutes/rules the title of 'The Law', this is a label you alone are using, while nearly everyone else considers the term, 'The Law' to be the entirety of God's instruction to Moses, which you I understand you are calling Levitical law.

When you create your own terminology, expect that some people will want to disagree with your usage.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

[Scarletprayers]

One of my favorite verses -

Ps 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me Thy law graciously.

Amen.

awesome, needed that!