Quantum Physics and the Voice of God

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings VRSpock,

If you forcefully bully a child to follow the rules by overpowering them, they will hate you for it. They have to willfully obey. If God forced us to not commit sins, we would hate Him for it. We have to willfully obey. It's simply the way we were created. We cannot do something if we do not want to do it.

I totally agree with you that there is inherent within each of us (from Adam onward) the ability "to choose", either to obey God or reject Him. But I must ask you to consider for one, our friend Jonah. He was willing to die even, rather than to face the prospect of prophecying to Ninevah. Even after he was thrown up on the beach, he still could have rebelled against God's wishes, but he probably asked himself "What's the point? God's not going to let me off the hook until I do what He says."

Throughout the scriptures, God gives the people the "choice" to either obey Him or suffer the consequences of disobedience.

Now as for children, I would not call it "bullying" if a parent "overpowers" their children to prevent them from running into the street of heavy traffic. I am reminded of this particular verse:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I once thought this verse meant that I would be delivered from any temptations that might come my way, particularly given my "nature" to be overcome by them, BUT that is not the case. They COME MY WAY "BECAUSE", I now have the ability to resist them. God still watches over us, and if we have not been prepared for a particular trial of our faith, IN FACT, He does not allow that to come against us. BUT when we have been strengthened to stand, THEN these trials may be in our future. These things do not happen to us for God's benefit, but they happen for OUR benefit. To reveal the extent that either we must grow, or to reveal to us how much we have already grown and need not be fearful of what may come in the future.

In any case, we too allow our children SOME latitude, to "test the waters" so to speak, but when we see that there are things which they are NOT prepared for, we guard them jealously until such time they are equiped to handle it themselves.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Osiris]

Define free will.

Show proof that there is a such thing as free will.

No! No!

Nihilism!

Argh!

Run away! Run away!

No, it is not really nihilism, I am not questioning to prove everything. I just think that free will is just an assumption, just because it 'seems' as though we do what we want doesn't really mean that we actually do what we want.

Or better yet, what is it that causes us to do what we want?

Don't you think it commendable of vrsock to present something to bridge the gap for Christians between Christianity and science?  With all the probs we've been having with that on the "Age of Earth" and stuff threads?  I know your beliefs are different on this issue and would thus have a different reaction to such a proposal as was written.  But hey - be thankful Christians are not fighting against science for a change and accepting its compatability!

Don't you think that's worth celebrating?

Whew-hoo!

Yes, I somewhat agree, but in my mind, how it was described, I did not find compatability, this is why I came in and disagreed, sorry...

[Osiris]

Osiris,

      So you don't think crimes and drug addiction are bad things? I see where you're coming from, or did you misread me and I misread you? Ha.

  ~ Martin

I do think that crimes and drug addiction are bad things...

[Osiris]

Define free will.

Show proof that there is a such thing as free will.

Do animals have free will? What creates free will, or where does free will come from?

To me it's difficult to question the existence of free will. "I think, therefore I am".

Well, the given quote assumes that the "I think" part is an actual fact. But what is the "I", and how can it be proven that the "I" actually makes the thought? Is the "I" your foot, your elbow, your brain, your whole body?

Remember that people with missing limbs can still think, and people with brain damage may still think, but not as what it is expected.

And what would be the difference in an animal thinking?

  If we could truely define free will, then true artificial intelligence for computer systems would be just over the horizon.  Instead, we have AI that is a complicated cause and effect system void of any real intelligence.  To me, it's like asking if sentient life truely exists.  Free will is a pre-requisite of sentient life, since it is also a trait of consciousness.

I think the reason we can't define free will is because there is no such thing, it is an impossibility, just like a fully red marble that is fully blue, it is an impossibility.

You see our actions, why do we do them? Is there a reason why we do something? If there is, then it is not free. If there is no reason, then it is not willed.

There is no scenario that could prove that an action is willed and is free.

Free will is best observed when the stereotypical preacher's daughter, who's been raised properly and taught right from wrong and had the best possible family environment to grow up in defies reason and goes completely out of her way to defile herself out of rebellion.

If she had a reason to rebel (something caused her to rebel), then her actions were not free.

If her actions were not caused by anything, then her actions were not willed.

Free will is best observed when someone who grew up in the worst environment imaginable and lived a life filled to the brim with sin suddenly does an about face and pulls themselves out of that state of existence to become a person of great character.

What caused that person to pull himself out of a situation?

What is something that caused it? Then it wasn't free...

Was it nothing that caused it? Then it wasn't willed...

Free will is the wild card variable the makes it to where no one's actions can be 100 percent predictable because on a whim, they may do something completely unexpected and not in sync with every other aspect of their existence.

I think free will is just an illusion, if you knew me, you'd know that I would rather stay home and not go out on the weekends, but it would also depend where I would go... it all boils down to what I like and dislike, or better yet, to what my brain finds more appealing. Everyone chooses what appeals to them over the other choices.

Free will is when a child begins to use the word "no" to their parents.

I think this would have to go towards the illusion again... the child is only choosing what it appeals to it.

If you forcefully bully a child to follow the rules by overpowering them, they will hate you for it.  They have to willfully obey.  If God forced us to not commit sins, we would hate Him for it.  We have to willfully obey.  It's simply the way we were created.  We cannot do something if we do not want to do it.

Well, if you bully a child, you are given them a reason(a cause) for them to hate you. The child did not choose to hate you, his will was not free; on the other hand, if you don't bully him, and he still hates you, then his hate was not willed.

[VRSpock]

Osiris,

I have a link for you then concerning free will. It goes pretty deep, so it may or may not be fun reading depending upon your personality, but since you're in a thread titled "quanutm physics and the Voice of God" I believe you'll find it enjoyable...lol. Let me know your thoughts on it.

http://examinedlifejournal.com/articles/pr...nka&authorid=64

[Green Darner]

I think free will is just an illusion,

Everyone chooses what appeals to them over the other choices.

Isn't this a contradiction?

It seems to me that what you are saying is that "thinking" is just an illusion. That all our actions are just behaviorial reactions.