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In 1500 B.C., which empire did God use to refine Israel? Egypt—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. In 722 B.C., which empire took the 10 Northern Tribes of Israel captive? Assyria—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. In 586 B.C., which empire took the Southern Kingdom of Judah into captivity? Babylon—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. In 539 B.C., which empire began its rule over the Jewish exiles? Media-Persia—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. In 187 B.C., which empire ruled during the Macobean Revolt? Greece—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. In 70 A.D., which empire destroyed Jerusalem? Rome—the most powerful kingdom on Earth. Which nation nearly conquered the entire world and killed six million Jews during WW2? Germany—arguably the most powerful nation on Earth at that time. (Certainly in Europe.) Which nations has God consistently used to discipline and purify Israel since its inception? The most powerful nations on Earth. Which nation will give rise to the Antichrist, who will be God's instrument of wrath and discipline against Israel in the coming years? The most powerful nation on Earth. Which nation is the most powerful on Earth?

Nearly five years ago, I posted that the Antichrist was a certain "somebody" who was then in office. Well, that person appears to be rising from a political mortal wound of sorts to a position of power never before granted in his country. I testified back then about the book I had written BEFORE he was elected to office in 2016, detailing from the Bible that he was (is) the Antichrist (as in "THE," not "an"). I was mocked, ridiculed, mischaracterized, and "schooled" by countless as to why I was so craazzzzyyy. AND HERE WE ARE. So, what say you now?

Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement? Thanks for your help! P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these: 10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. 11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. People often say: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation. Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic

I need input. Some people suggest God's wrath begins at the 6th seal where it is written that "the day of His wrath has come." Others suggest that is only the sign; His wrath really starts at the 7th seal with the first trumpet judgment. Some even suggest His wrath will not start until He returns to earth. I personally think wrath begins at the earthquake at the 6th seal. Where then does God's wrath really begin?

The traditional view of the Rapture is that there is only one harvest, and then comes the end. However, Scripture gives abundant witness that it consists of three "Raptures" symbolized by the 3 main Jewish feasts, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles: https://raptureandendtimes.com/2020/12/19/3-raptures-passover-pentecost-and-tabernacles/

Some people believe the Day of the Lord will begin at the 6th seal where it is written, "the great day of His wrath is come." Others think this is just an announcement and the real Day will begin with the 7th seal. I believe the Day MUST start in one of these two places. Please give which of these two points (6th seal or 7th seal) you believe is the true START of the Day of the Lord, and your argument as to why. (Note, this will not include any arguments that the Day of the Lord will be the last event of the 70th week, or the theory that the Day will come with His coming to Armageddon. I already know these two theories are bogus.)

Blessings brothers and sister, I was wondering what insight you might have about the usefulness of having children in these last last days. I know we don't know "the day and the hour" but we can't ignore the times. I really want children, and so does my unbelieving spouse but 2 miscarriages later and with the end approaching I'm wondering if this is the best decision for serving the Lord. I love to study and teach and have already envisioned a wonderful and comprehensive homeschooling curriculum, and will follow guides to make sure they successfully grow through their stages. My husband forbids the kids attending church or being taught Christianity as fact rather than my belief. Still, he's not against Christian friends and conversation per se... Other than this, my husband is a committed provider, supports traditional roles and most of Christian teachings, and is very affectionate to family (including our cats). I think will make a very good dad. So far things seem to indicate a green light from God, but I'm still interested in what you all know or think!

This may have been done before. If so, we can move on if need be. The time of the end, as in, the last 3.5 yrs. or 7 yrs if you prefer. HOW will it begin? What scenario or set of events/circumstances will be upon the opening of it? I am interested to know how others see it beginning. Here is how I presume it will start: ( no matter how we answer, we could be wrong- all of us) I am looking at the upcoming situation in Israel when they will declare sovereignty over territories and effectively divide the land. This could lead to no small conflict (paraphrasing the Jordanians) and could stir up jihadis from around the middle east to attack Israel. The damage inflicted could be extremely heavy, enough for the Israelis to deploy (tactical) nukes. The world powers would step in and impose a cease fire AND a new state of Palestine enforced with "peacekeepers" including through a divided Jerusalem. THAT is Rev. 11 as far as I am concerned- the city being trodden under the feet of the Gentiles for 42 months. (yep, no 7 yr. period) This is the time when the 2 witnesses will be on the scene. Shortly after that, the anti-Christ comes to power, starting his own 42 month period,ending by the return of Jesus. (I guess I went a bit beyond the start of it)

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Jesus took His listeners from their time through the church age, then to the midpoint of the week when He mentioned the abomination. Here He is after the tribulation. of course this is future to us today. Then He begins talking about the TIMING of His coming. He does this with parables. The Fig Tree Jesus begins with the parable of the fig tree and all the trees. If the fig tree represents Israel, then "all the trees" represent the nations of the world. Today we see an alliance of Russian with Syria in the Middle East. We see Israel back in their land. We see war in Syria. We see "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity." In Matthew we read "when you see all these things..." We have seen almost everything in that chapter except for His coming! I just discovered a "live" earthquake feed online: it seems almost every minute another small earthquake. It seems the "trees" are lined up for the end. Next, He talked about the goodman of the house NOT knowing when the thief was coming. Then, " Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." And what is the timing for this? Jesus is still "immediately after the tribulation..." Next, Jesus talked about "a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household." Will that servant watch, or will he begin to grow impatient as if the Master had delayed His coming? Jesus gave another warning: "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of. Remember, this is still "after the tribulation of those days" Jesus is talking about. Jesus main point so far is to be ready at all times. Don't even think Jesus has delayed His coming! Jesus next parable is the parable of the Ten Virgins. The timing therefore on it has not changed: Jesus did not put in chapter headings! He is STILL talking about the time after the tribulation of those days and His coming. It seems Many people today think He will come on the last day of the week. They are mistaken. So the parable of the Ten Virgins is for no other time than the time after the tribulation of those days and before His coming. For the pretribbers, that would be His coming for Armageddon. Many people think this parable is for the rapture. No, it is not. The bride is not even mentioned! This is about the guests for the wedding. It is pointed right at the Jews who have survived the 70th week. The Antichrist Beast has probably not yet gathered the armies of the world to Israel, but is just about to. Jesus next parable is the parable of the talents. It is pointed right at the Jews. Did you notice that there is nothing in these parables of being born again? It seems to be works based here. It is not for the church. It is for that short time after the trib and before His coming. In Verse 19 Jesus said, "After a long time the lord of those servants cometh..." The wicked servant was cast into outer darkness. Next, Jesus said, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory..." It is the judgment of the nations. Now it is AFTER Jesus has come. I offer a challenge: can anyone find a verse in these chapters that definitely points to the church?

The Post-trib position in a nutshell compared with the Bible A short Bible study on a topic that some want to make way too complicated - Omegaman Post-Trib Belief What the Bible (NASB) Says The software here makes formatting difficult. There is an easier to read version if you prefer July 28th, 2014 - Omegaman 3.0 There will be a time of trouble Jesus called birth pangs You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.7“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. There will be a sign 15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. He then will send angels to gather His elect 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return 36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. 42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 44“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. The Bible, to prevent deception. tells us the order of the events: 3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you." Every verse listed so far, was from the 24th Chapter of the book of Matthew. You have just read them yourself, exactly as they are in the bible, and in the same order, so you can see for yourself, what Jesus said about these things.As you can see, He did not use figurative or symbolic language, he was very clear, and used lots of words which indicat time sequences, words like "then" and "at that time". There is no need to spin Jesus' words or make unwarranted assumptions, as many are tempted to do. Let's look at some more info from the apostles Paul and from John There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. From 1 Thess chapter 4 Notice again the sequence: The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise, Then the living Christian join them in the air. 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Like Jesus before him, Paul also said there was a sign to look for, a sigh that would appear before our gathering to Him in the rapture. Beleivers are to look for this man, and by that will now that the 2nd coming of Jesus, is then imminent. 2 Thess 2 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, but watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. 1 Thess 5 1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Since we know that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture (vs 16 & 17 of 1 Thess 4) of the living believers, if we only knew if that resurrection was before or after the tribulation, we could understand if the rapture was before or after the tribulation. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection, to be followed by the rapture (1 Thess 4:17) rapture. 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. This has been a summary of the Post Tribulation Rapture viewpoint, also known as Historic Premillenialism, along with some scripture passages which can be said to support this understanding. There were assertions, and there were supporting verses and passages, without inserting things like an invisible, secret coming (is there even one verse that says that? If so, I have never seen it), and idea that has become popular in modern times. I tried to keep this faithful to scripture, I tried to make it simple and clear. Jesus and Paul warned about deceptions to come, I take those warning seriously. Paul had this to say as well: 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Tim 4 I will end with this thought from the book of Acts: 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Some versions render that as "He must remain in heaven until the time" Personally, I find all these verses harmonize perfectly well with each other, and I beleive the Post-Trib rapture position, is consistant with them as well. I hope you found this helpful and informative (Reply to a question - question asker asked for question to be deleted - but ok to leave answer if name not mentioned) Omegaman Jul 31 2014 10:23 PM Your reply touches on something that is always an issue, the idea of interpretation. I have no idea if I am right or I am wrong, I believe I am right of course, otherwise I would change my view, lol. However, where I think my understanding and belief is different from many, is that I try not to interpret at all, I just read, and try to understand. If you read my post, and I assume you did, you will have noticed that I did two things - I stated aspects of the doctrine which I accept, and then I stated the scripture that appears to support those points. You will have noticed that what I did not do was things like: "You see where it says 'elect', that is the Jews!" or: "See where it says the restrainer?" - that is the Holy Spirit: Those sorts of things, are interpretations, I just pointed out scripture and let it speak for itself. The things that are usually used to demonstrate a pre-tribulation rapture, are interpretations at best, usually they are arguments from silence, or assumed inferences not warranted by the text. For example, all of the ways people try to see a sudden, secret, any moment visit by Jesus, well, it is just odd, since the text never says any such thing. While I know people do not intend harm, it strikes me as dishonest to treat scripture so carelessly. Of course, I just stepped on millions of toes with that statement, but it frustrates me that people cannot see the difference between their assumptions and what the Bible actually says, and does not say. In my post I didn't even mention all the evidences that demonstrate the errors of pre-trib assumptions, I just tried to give positive evidence for a post trib position, and I did not have to assume or twist anything to do that - just posted scripture. I could still be in error for my understanding, but I do not think my understanding is unreasonable, and I expect that many others might notice that. My main point in my reply, that I would like you to take away, is that stating scripture, is not an interpretation, it is just stating scripture. I pointed out how, those scriptures might represent what I have come to believe. If the difference is not obvious, then I just wasted my time, but it will not be the first time I have done that. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond.

(an excerpt from my book, Rise of the Little Horn) The Emergence A man with no military or political experience announces his run for the most powerful seat in the world. His promise? GREATNESS. He controls the flow of money, and is head over a military that is unmatched in the world. He is consumed with winning politically and fortifying his strongholds. Though initially thought of as a minor threat by his associates, he truly towers over them. He demolishes them by means of abusive and slanderous speech, tears down the character of those who oppose him and flatters and elevates those who admire him. He rises up as if by sheer will. He is an alpha male who plots and manipulates anything and everything to take down his opponents. He is seemingly unstoppable. To the utter amazement of the world, he succeeds at nearly everything he does, despite his lack of deep personal conviction on any issue except self-aggrandizement. His narcissistic pride is evident to all as he continually boasts, exaggerating his achievements and financial worth. He is characteristically disingenuous, so deftly twisting the truth that deceit becomes the norm rather than the exception. An aura emanates from him that seems to delude people’s thinking; making those―seemingly intelligent―unable to discern truth from falsehood. At some point, these deluded masses begin to view good things as evil and evil things as good. He is untamable, doing whatever he pleases. These characteristics cause other world leaders to fear him. He shows little regard for the support of women, yet boasts of his various adulterous relationships. Despite his inflated claims, he does possess considerable wealth, which he unabashedly flaunts; wealth accumulated through real estate holdings and building projects. Hailed as the consummate praised man of the city, he is a builder of great high towers, bedecked with precious stones and gold. He is obsessed with his name and plasters it on everything he touches. He is cunning and shrewd; playing his enemies like a game of cards. He is vicious in his desire to win. The concepts of grace and forgiveness find no place in him. Violence follows him wherever he goes; even to the killing of innocents who stand between him and his goals. His false show of religion gains the trust of people of faith―deluding them. He comes to power through the “simple folk” who have been discarded as insignificant. His supporters are unwavering in their commitment, for they worship the ground he walks on. His rise to power coincides with a political uprising and defection. Many will leave their former political affiliations. His ascension comes at a time of worldwide financial, social, religious, military and civil upheaval. But he will promise to restore law and order, and to soon put an end to crime and violence; a few of many extravagant promises he will never keep. He will establish an extreme vetting process to prevent illegals from gaining access. He will seek the wealth of Iraq as Russia shows signs of escalating military aggression towards the Middle East. Known for his ability to make deals, he promises to make a peace deal between Israel and her surrounding enemies. He plans a restructure of the balance of power in Europe in order to fight terror. The earth will be in global flux. Who do these paragraphs describe? This portrait was penned thousands of years ago. It is a biblical word picture of the most evil, ruthless killer of all time; a tyrant who will draw the world into the last great mega-battle known as Armageddon. The Bible refers to this man as the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Wicked One, the Worthless Shepherd, the Beast, the LIE, the Adversary, the Spoiler, the Willful King, the Lawless One, the Desolator, and more. This man’s wickedness grows until, eventually, Satan himself will possess him. He is known to most as the Antichrist. (Copyright 2016 - Jonathan Dane - All Rights Reserved)

This one is lengthy, almost 45 minutes, but I think it is worth your time. I found it fascinating and delightful, and should be encouraging and helpful to Christians. I was tempted to put it in the Bible Topics area, there is a not of Bible in it. However it is more of a testimony of the remarkable events of Corrie's life of how she came to be imprisoned in Nazi Germany for hiding Jews from persecution, and her experiences in concentration camps. Did you know fleas and lice, can be a blessing from God, and an ant can give you a sermon? There are lessons here, for any who might find themselves in persecution, (real persecution, not merely being ridiculed for your faith at the work place) to see how faith can see us through, should such events ever befall us.

Jesus said that days of great tribulation would begin after the abomination. This is good information, but many people disagree on where in Revelation the abomination event will take place. Pre-wrathers insist the days of tribulation are before the 6th seal. They are in error. We are going to examine where in Revelation those days of great tribulation will come. Some people call the last half of the week, "great tribulation." I don't think God ever put that title on the last half of the week. It is therefore in error. God is going to shorten the days of great tribulation but the week will continue on to its 1260 day fulfillment. Jesus said that when those in Judea SEE the abomination event, they are to flee - instantly! There will be no time to get a coat or hat or food. Where then do we find the fleeing begin? It is in 12:6. We can then pinpoint the timing of verse 12:6 to a second or two after the abomination. We must account for some reaction time. If we back up verse by verse from 12:6 looking for a major event such as a trumpet judgment, we come to the 7th trumpet. I am convinced that 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares he is God - the God of the Jews. We have now delineated where the abomination is in Revelation. If we read down in chapter 12, we see that the Dragon will go first after those who have fled, and in failing there will begin to go after the remnant of the seed of the woman, Israel, who love Jesus. This would be the remnant of the church: only a remnant because the rapture took out the main load before the 7th seal started the week. The devil or Dragon has to use people to do his work. To go after anyone he will need people. I think it is clear that the Dragon will possess the man of sin who will then become the Beast. John sees the Beast rise up in chapter 13. the Beast will have armies, so now the Dragon will have people to do is bidding. Jesus said that those days of GT (great tribulation) will be worse than any other time on earth, past, present or future. What is it that will make these days so bad? John tells us in Rev. 13: the Beast and False Prophet will erect an image and force all to bow down and worship this image. He will repeat what Nebuchadnezzar did. Those that refuse to bow will lose their head. Next, these two Beasts will create a mark. NO one will be able to buy or sell without the mark. While this is going on, the Two Witnesses will stop the rain. Remember that one of the trumpet judgments turned 1/3 of all fresh water into blood. Another trumpet judgment I believe will be Nuclear war, and much of the fresh water will be radiated and undrinkable. In other words, it is highly likely that water will become the most precious commodity. Fresh drinking water will only be in stores, and to get it, one must have the Mark. God is going to warn every human before the mark is enforced that to take the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. Every human is going to know this. Therefore GREAT PRESSURE is going to be put on people to take the mark. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator. Where then in Revelation will be those days of GT that Jesus spoke of that will be worse than any other time in history? Certainly those days must be AFTER God sends His warning, found in Rev. 14. In fact, John shows us the first beheaded people BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. Therefore, scripturally, the days of GT will not begin until AFTER chapter 14 in Revelation. No one know how long into the second half of the week this will be, but my guess is, not far. It will take some time to erect an image and some time to create and enforce the mark. No one knows if this will be world wide. I suspect it will be. It is written that the Beast deceives the whole world. it is written that Satan extends his authority to the whole word. God will wait until the wrath of Satan has reached its peak, in the beheading of all those who refuse to bow and refuse the mark. Then God will begin to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. One the vials are poured out, no one is going to be out hunting down anyone. The armies of the Beast will be sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues in pain. Darkness will cover the earth. Day after day of Darkness while everyone is scared spit-less of what is coming next. Finally the 1260th day will come and the 7th vial will be poured out, ending the 70th week. I believe it will be at this 7th trumpet that God will raise the Old Testament saints - including those before the flood. This is going to cause the world's worst earthquake ever, as seen at the 7th vial. The cities of the nations will fall. The days of GT will have ended, but Jesus remains in heaven. The events of Rev. 17 & 18 take place, the marriage and supper will take place, and finally Jesus will descend to earth with the armies of heaven for Armageddon. The 42 months of authority for the Beast is up. Jesus will capture both the Beast and the False Prophet and cast them into the lake of fire.

The Feasts Fulfilled from 18 Feb 1991ml I have made some changes. See end for notes. Passover Jews in ancient Israel were required to go to Jerusalem to celebrate three feasts, Passover, Pentecost, and in the autumn, Trumpets. Jesus fulfilled Passover which occurred on a full moon, the 14th day of the month Nisan. Passover celebrates the Exodus from Egypt, which bespeaks salvation, escape, deliverance. Nisan 1 commences at the New Moon, as do all months on the Jewish calendar. This month should mark the beginning of the year by Jews (rather than in September/October as they presently observe, the Civil Year.) Ex. 12:1-3: "And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb .... a lamb for an house." Jesus, the slain Lamb, is the only acceptable sacrifice, and believers trust in the Blood of the Lamb and are thereby saved. Unleavened Bread Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread which commenced the same day as Passover, on the 14th day of Nisan, and it was a seven day period of eating bread without leavening, which represents sin. This feast was fulfilled before God only, as Jesus, the sinless one was lifted up before God. Mark 14:.12, 22 12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?... 22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. Firstfruits Jesus fulfilled Firstfruits by arising from the grave on the third day after His death. The term Firstfruits refers to the first sheaves of barley which were ready to cut and Jesus's resurrection is the fulfillment. [Lev. 23:10.] Many saved people were also resurrected from their graves and walked about the Jerusalem area at the time of Jesus's resurrection. This first group of resurrected saints compares to the Rapture of believers as the world goes on around the event. I believe the Rapture of the Church is shown in the following Scriptures. Jesus the grain, died, brought forth much fruit, and His Church is likened to a harvest of grain. Jesus often likened Himself to a husbandman also, and here He is waiting for the precious fruit, the gathering of the harvest of souls. John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. The barley and wheat harvests in Israel are the early crops, with the earliest, the barley harvest completed in April, and the wheat completed in May. This year of 2018, Passover commences Friday evening, March 30, and the counting of the days, Lag b'Omer, and Omer 1 starts on March 31. Jesus arose on Firstfruits, "the morrow after the Sabbath," Sunday, and in 2018, Firstfruits is Sunday, April 1, through Saturday, April 7. The Lag b'Omer ends on the 50th day, the morrow after the Sabbath, which is Pentecost. Lev. 23. Centuries ago, the Jewish calendar was changed, and Pentecost was shifted from always being on a Sunday 'the morrow after the Sabbath,' to Sivan 6. This year of 2018, Sivan 6 happens to fall on Pentecost Sunday. These days are for me a time of considering whether He may gather us during the period of the grain harvest. Lev. 23:10-11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. The people were not to eat of the grain until it had been waved before the Lord. We see a picture of a time of rejoicing for Israel revealed in the story of old Naomi, and her restoration and joy in having a little boy to care for in her old age. Ruth was married and taken into Boaz's house and lifted out of her time of gleaning in the field. The son of Boaz, Obed, is born. Others have noted that the book of Ruth is like the story of the Church and the Lord Jesus, and I think there is also this parallel to Israel revealed in Naomi's story, that Jesus is like Boaz, and when He and the Church are wed in heaven, a son will be born, the sealed servants in Israel. Naomi will be brought back to joys she had thought were lost forever. Just as Obed means "serving," so the end time, 144,000 believing Jews will be excellent servants of God as we are told in Revelation. Naomi means "pleasantness" but she said she had become bitterness. Naomi's joy will return. Other types of these victorious, believing Jews are seen in the three young men in the fiery furnace; in Elisha; and in Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph; and in Benjamin. Pentecost I believe the harvest of grain in springtime points to the season of the coming of the Lord for His believers. The increase of the grain, the harvest reveals the way He has multiplied His believers like a sower who cultivates His field. Pentecost celebrates the giving of the law, and occurs after seven sabbaths, on a Sunday ("the morrow after the sabbath") according to Scripture, (making it another reason for us to worship on Sunday, the day Christ arose). This fulfillment occurred when the Holy Spirit fell upon the gathered believers, as Jesus had promised. He came with a noise of a mighty wind, and the separated 120 believers saw the flames of fire on one another's heads. Believers spoke in other tongues, telling about Jesus to people of other nations. Just as fire came on Sinai as the law was given, so fire came on the Church in Jerusalem. Observance on Sunday has been set aside by the Jews as explained above. Tradition says that Enoch was born on Pentecost and was also taken up by God on Pentecost. Feast of Trumpets Next is the Feast of Trumpets, a convocation of trumpets, and all Jews are to gather in Jerusalem. Some think the convocation of trumpets will be fulfilled by believers going up to heaven, being gathered to Him, and that Jesus, as High Priest, will blow the trumpet ['the trump of God' I Thes.] just as occurred at this feast in Israel near sundown on the evening before the new moon of Tishri 1 when the High Priest blew the shofar to gather the people, who were to immediately go to the temple. The Day of Atonement The Day of Atonement was a solemn fast day when the Jews were not to work. For thousands of years, annually on this day the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood of a sacrifice and interceded for the people. A rope was tied around his ankle in order to pull him out if he died in there and the sacrifice was not accepted. Jesus went into the Holy of Holies before the Lord and made an atonement for us by the sprinkling of His own Blood. After the Rapture of the believers, there will be, I believe, an awed multitude of Jews who see that something has happened and many will seek the Lord. I think this time of shock is revealed in the first chapter of the Book of Joel, and that following chapters describe the tribulation and their comfort as they find God has not forsaken them. (I have done a little study on Joel which indicates my reasons.) Jesus has made our atonement and we won't ever experience the earthly fulfillment of that dreadful dark period. I believe the Jews will experience great revival and miracles, and will believe and evangelize. The tremendous outpouring of God's Spirit as related in Joel will fall upon them. I believe "Ephraim" was born in 1948, as Israel became a nation. During the terrible time of God's wrath outpoured upon the sinful earth, Israel will experience great things. I believe this is borne out in books of the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation. Far from the Jews staying behind to experience only curses, I believe many will believe and please the Lord. They will become a true witness, just as the three young men in the fiery furnace in Daniel, and the Lord will be manifested among them! They will live through terrible times as they wait to see Him. No wonder that He said blessed are those who believe without having to see. Believers have received the Blood of the slain Passover Lamb, His offering of Unleavened Bread, and we have taken the symbols of His Blood in the wine and His body in the broken bread. We have believed in Firstfruits, with Jesus raised from the dead, like a grain of wheat buried, seemingly dead, and then sprouted in new life. We have experienced Pentecost and are in a time of waiting and watching for Jesus to come. We will never again experience a day of crying out and seeking an atonement because Jesus is our all in all. Tabernacles, Booths, Succot At this feast, all Jews were to go up to Jerusalem for the great gathering of the people. They were told by the Lord to live out of doors for a week in little booths made of tree limbs and branches to remind them of the way God had protected them in their sojourn from Egypt. Tabernacles commences on the full moon, the harvest moon. Most of the crops are in, the grape harvest is ending in September. The olive will be harvested during September, October, November. Revelation mentions the pressing of grapes was the time of His wrath. Are the 144,000 believing Jews like olives, pressed, yielding precious oil? The two witnesses of the Book of Revelation are likened to two olive trees. The olive harvest and pressing reminds us of the oil being used for the Menorah lamp. We know that the grapes of wrath reveal the wicked. Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the Lord setting His Throne in Jerusalem so all the saved would come up to it, since it is on a mountain, Mount Olivet. Remaining Jews will experience the time of Jacob's trouble and consider the fulfillments of some of the feasts, and realize what the Lord has done. The periods of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel will commence to be fulfilled. The Lord has a marvelous plan for the Jews. He will mightily undertake for them, and just as Joseph dealt with his brothers and restored them to himself in a time of great famine, so the Lord will undertake for them in the dark days prophesied in the Scriptures, and they will be restored to Him with tears of joy. We are soon coming to the sunset, it seems to me. In the twilight after we believers are gone, the Day of the Lord will commence. The sun was darkened when Jesus died, and the Jewish day commences at sunset, and with it begins the dark Day of the Lord. The Day of Atonement will come and stretch on as the Jews seek God's salvation in that awful time. The seven years start with the covenant of the evil one and Israel, but there could be some intervening time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble will commence, the time of Daniel's seventieth "week." Greater things than the Exodus will occur. Afterward, Tabernacles, and then the light of the new day will come, the thousand year earthly reign of Christ here on earth. And He shall reign forever and ever. Some say the Church will go through the tribulation, that God fulfilled the spring feasts in a mighty way on the earth, but that both believers and unbelievers will move together into the tribulation. Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth, and sit upon the throne of David, and rule the earth from Jerusalem. Every year, all people of the earth will come to worship Him there or they will have no rain, according to Zechariah. Jesus will reign one thousand years, and turn all over to His Father for eternity. Blessed be the Name of the Lord! ***** Notes, 26 March 2018: I want to say a bit more about a group referred to by various names: NAR New Apostolic Revolution, Latter Day Rain, MSOG or Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Identity. They and others teach against pre-tribulation Rapture and that Jesus will not come until believers take over, have dominion over the world. I've read that they believe that the office of Apostle can be conferred by the laying on of their hands, and that the Church has replaced Israel, Replacement Theology. In 2018, Paul Smith of Calvary Chapel states that the "New Evangelical" outlook, which I think is spreading among some churches, is that Jesus is gradually coming into hearts. [So many are being taught to not take the Scripture literally as to Jesus' return.] I visited a Manifest Sons type of group with an acquaintance, in 1980s, for their large Feast of Tabernacles meetings and celebration, and it took me awhile, but I realized, 'What about the blessed hope?' I take the Scriptures literally and decided the blessed hope is the hope of His coming for believers -- not death, not tribulation, not being hidden in Petra in the mountains southwest of Jerusalem. I'm surprised, but these post-tribulation ideas are still growing and are found among many. The Manifest Sons group has their main weekly meeting on Saturday, is allied with "CCC" Christ Community Churches. Dominion Theology people preach that the Church must bring the earth under control before Jesus can come again. We will benefit from comparing Scriptures about 1) the grain harvest 2) the coming for the Bride 3) the householder on a journey who exhorts his servants to watch, and will learn much by looking again at the parables of Jesus. All unbelieving people left behind at the Rapture will live during the Time of Jacob's trouble. God's plan will be fulfilled and many will be saved, but many will die, many will be executed, and suffering will be great. One hundred forty four thousand Jewish men from the tribes will evangelize and many will believe. After the departing of the Church, the Scripture will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved. The book of Joel chapter 1 speaks of an event that has occurred: "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation." Verse 7: "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white." Does this event point to the missing believers and realization by Jews that they had not recognized Messiah, or does it indicate there has been a military attack on Israel? Specifics for events in the time of tribulation can be found in Daniel and in the Book of Revelation. The evil man will arise and set up world government and eventually enter the Temple in Jerusalem, saying he is God, and the most awful times will occur. Great numbers of new believers, who will refuse to take his mark, will be beheaded. Eventually, as Jesus warned, some will flee Jerusalem and hide in the mountains to the southeast, and be sustained by the Lord. Evil unbelieving people of the tribulation are compared to a harvest gathering of grapes, to be crushed. Believers during the Time of Jacob's trouble might be compared to the olive harvest, the last harvest of the agricultural year, and the pressing of the olives. After a specific number of days, Jesus will come with all His saints, on white horses and clothed in white linen, and He will split Mount Olivet in Jerusalem, east to west. He will slay all His enemies upon the earth by the word from His mouth. Some people will live through the tribulation and have children, in a time of peace, blessing, abundance. Satan will be bound, Rev. 20. Rev. 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. We look forward to His gathering of His grain harvest. Rev. 22:20 Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Someone who read this list elsewhere, suggested that I post this in my blog, so here it is: Things some people say (which the Bible DOES NOT) about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. (See Matt 24:21 & Rev 7:14) 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is missing from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. 10. The Bible does not say the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. (Titus 2:13) 11. The Bible does not say that Jesus will return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. Those definitions may be workable, however the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT? Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events? There are more: Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Questions for Post-Tribulationists. Question 1: Show me the rapture mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 or Zechariah 14:1-5? It’s not there. Question 2: Show me the church mentioned in one OT or NT passage discussing the tribulation? Question 3: How can the rapture and glorious appearing be on the same day when the rapture day is unknown and the glorious appearing day will be known? How can a day be both known and unknown? Question 4: The open door into heaven with a voice, trumpet, and catching up to heaven occurs in both Rev 4:1 and I Thess 4:16-18.Why do post-tribs reject this as the pre-trib. rapture? Open door Rev 19:11. Q5: If you accept the 2 witnesses are caught up to heaven in Rev 11:12 by ‘Come up hither’ why not rapture in 4:1? Question 6: Show me the church on earth from Revelation 6-18? It is not there because it is in heaven. Question 7: If the church is not raptured until Rev 20:4, as post-tribulationists think, then how could the church be in heaven in Rev 19:7-11, before Christ’s glorious appearing? Question 8: Do you agree that the 24 elders in heaven represent the raptured church age Christians? If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity? If yes, then will you accept the pre-tribulation rapture and reject the post-tribulation rapture as error? Question 9: Do you agree that the armies in fine linen accompanying Christ at His return are church age Christians? If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity? Question 10: Who are you looking for, Christ or antichrist? Why would Christ want His bride to look for the antichrist? Question 11: How will the tribulation sufferings comfort us? Post-tribulationists can’t explain this. Question 12: Does the Philadelphian church represent the faithful church at the end of the church age? Do you believe that God will keep this church out of the time of the tribulation coming on all the world? Question 13: Since Jesus returns to earth from a wedding, doesn’t this prove the church is in heaven before the glorious appearing? Can you see that this disproves the post-tribulation rapture? Why is the church in heaven (19:7) if the church is raptured after Jesus returns to earth as post-trib claims? Question 14: Who is the Restrainer? If he is the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, then doesn’t this prove the rapture comes before antichrist is revealed and before the tribulation as II Thess. 2:6-8 states? Question 15: Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and not take us there at the rapture (as post-tribulation rapture people think)? Question 16: What is the purpose of the rapture if it occurs at the end of the tribulation? No purpose! Question 17: Who resurrects and gathers the church at the rapture, Christ or angels? Christ! Then how can Matthew 24:31 refer to the rapture if angels gather the elect of Israel here? Question 18: How can the last day be the same 24 hour period when 1000 years separate the resurrection of the saved in John 11:24 and the resurrection of the unsaved in John 12:48? Question 19: In Matthew 13:30,49 the angels gather the wicked first and gather the righteous later, then the angels gathering the elect in Matthew 24:31 cannot be the rapture, because in I Thessalonians 4:17 the righteous are resurrected first. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46). Question 21: Who will populate the millennium? If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ This judgment of Israel occurs at the second coming of Jesus Christ in glory and requires saved and unsaved Israelites to be regathered. If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, why would there be a need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming. They would have been separated a few days earlier by the rapture. Question 23: In view of these 14 differences between the rapture and glorious appearing, why do you ignore these differences and insist that these events occur on the same day? Question 24: If we go through the tribulation, how can it be a blessed hope? Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it? Question 26: What is desirable about entering the tribulation? Nothing. 1502 Question 27: What comfort is there in entering the tribulation? None. Question 28: Why do you ignore 7 examples of the focus of the tribulation being Israel, and still believe the church enters the tribulation? What examples prove that the church enters the tribulation? Question 29: If the apostles are in heaven in Revelation 18:20 before Christ’s return in Revelation 19, then how can the church be raptured later when Christ returns in Revelation 19? Questio30: Since Paul uses the third person pronouns ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ in I Thessalonians 5:3, can you see that he is excluding the church from the tribulation, thus proving a pre-tribulation rapture? Q31: Since church age believers are not of darkness, why do you say we enter the tribulation darkness? Question 32: Will the church be overtaken by the day of the Lord/tribulation or not overtaken? No! Question 33: Has God appointed the church to the tribulation wrath or not (I Thess 5:9)? Paul says no! Question 34: Why would God rescue Enoch, Lot, Rahab from His judgment on the wicked & not the church? Question 35: What is the significance of ‘the departure’ (η apostasia) in II Thess 2:3 having a definite article and no qualifying words when every other use of the noun or verb tells what a departure is from? Why didn’t Paul use ‘parapipto’ for falling away from the faith as he did in Hebrews 6:6? Question 36: What are the differences between the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels? Question 37: If the rapture and glorious appearing occur on the same day as post-trib say, where is the time to fit in the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church? How can these three fit into one hour? Question 38: Jesus said that some will escape the tribulation. How can we escape it if we must enter it? Question 39: If the church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks, why should it be found in the 70th week, which is the 7 years tribulation period? Question 40: Write out the time line of Revelation, with scriptures, agreed on by post-tribulationists? Question 41: Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven if we won’t go there as post-trib think? Question 42: What is the purpose of the tribulation for the church? None. To try nations & prepare Israel. Question 43: Since the church is united to Christ, and those in the tribulation come under the Antichrist’s and Satan’s authority, why would Christ place Himself under Satan’s authority? Question 44: What NT scripture tells the church how to endure the tribulation’s sufferings? None. Question 45: Would it be God’s will for the church to submit to the antichrist’s government? No. Question 46: Is the antichrist’s government ministers of God? No. Question 47: If the church enters the tribulation, which part of the church is raptured to heaven, and which part of the church stays on the earth according to Matthew 25:34 and post-tribulationism? Question 48: Who will come first, Christ at the rapture or antichrist? Who are you looking for? Why? Question 49: Are the 144,000 Israelites part of the church? Why? Q50: Why would God discuss the Whore on earth in the tribulation & not discuss the church on earth? Question 51: Explain how I Thess 1:10; 5:4,5,9; II Thess 2:3,13; Rev. 3:10 allow a Post-trib. rapture? Question 52: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this? Question 53: Why would Paul tell the Thessalonians not to be shaken in mind or troubled (II Thess 2:2) if they were to enter the tribulation? The tribulation would trouble anyone. Question 54: Can you prove that ‘the departure’ (2:3) & ‘taken out of the way’ (2:7) is not the church? Question 55: Please answer these problems with post-tribulationism: 3) Post-tribulationism misunderstands the purposes of the tribulation period. 6) Post-tribulationism does not explain the differences between the rapture and the second coming passages. The burden of proof is on post-tribulationism to reconcile these to their plan. 7) Post-tribulationism’s strongest argument is the argument from silence. The contrast between the rapture and glorious appearing passages is between joy and judgment, deliverance and discipline, good news and bad news. 8) Post-tribulationism is logically flawed and inconsistent. 9) Post-tribulationism is inconsistent with literal interpretation. 10) Post-tribulationism blurs the distinction between Israel and the church. 11) Post-tribulationism is inconsistent with the doctrine of Imminence. 13) Post-tribulationism fails to harmonize the full body of Biblical Data. 1503

The Two Distinct Periods of Tribulation in The Last Half of the Seventieth Week Many fail to see that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the second half of the seventieth week. The first is great tribulation upon the elect and Israel by the Beast and his followers. The second is tribulation from God upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers. The passages below emphasize this fact. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When Jesus returns, the great tribulation, that time of trouble that Daniel spoke of (Dan 12:1) will be cut short (Matt 24:22). It is at that time that He will resurrect the dead in Christ (Dan 12:1-2, Rev 20:4-6, 1Cor 15:23, 51-52) and send the angels to catch up those who are alive and remain together with them, into the clouds (Rev 1:7), to be with Him (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31). It is after we are safely at the Father's house (John 14:3), before the throne of God (Rev 7:9-17) that His wrath begins to be poured out (Rev 8, 9, 16-19) suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) on the very same day (Luke 17:26-30). It can be shown that there are two periods of tribulation which make up the second half of the week, the last 3½ years prior to Christ's literal, physical, millennial reign, upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. The explicit statements of the Scriptures below make it clear that there are two distinct unparalleled periods of tribulation in the second half of the week. When does the great tribulation begin? In the middle of the week Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. What comes after the great tribulation? The cosmic sign spoken of by Joel which is the precursor to Christ's return. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. “If these passages describe the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31, and they do, then it is an indisputable fact that the day of the Lord cannot begin until the great tribulation is over.” Pastor Conley God's wrath, at the beginning of the day of the Lord, doesn't begin until the elect (all believers in Jesus Christ) are removed from the earth, after the great tribulation. God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. When considering this verse, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. Here, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (ghay and katoikeo). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12). Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD: Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Note: Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints. John records concerning the two witnesses: Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ... Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Note: The earth-dwellers here rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do. Again, John uses this technical term concerning those who are deceived by the false prophet: Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Note: The earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24). Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the beast and receive his mark. Recognizing that the focus of the temptation is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation. What verses show that the great tribulation is the persecution of the elect and Israel? The persecution of Israel can readily be seen in many passages. The most spoken of today is likely Jer. 30:7 where the term “Jacob’s trouble” appears. Dan 12:1 can also rightly be speaking of the believing remnant of Israel. Jesus’ instruction in the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, 25) has a decidedly Jewish flavor which must include the Jews. However, we must remember it is only believers who listen to the Master’s voice. Rev 12, decidedly shows us that Satan persecutes both the Israelites and believers in Jesus Christ when he is cast from Heaven to the earth in the middle of the week. There are many references to Christians being persecuted in the great tribulation. Rev 6:9-11 describes those martyred souls under the alter in Heaven crying out for vengeance, that would have to wait, until the rest of their brethren and fellowservants should be killed as they were. The innumerable multitude in Rev 7:9-17 are said to have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They are saved by the blood of the Lamb just like we are. The saints are said to overcome the wrath of Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and loved not their lives unto death” (Rev 12:11). When the dragon cannot get to the woman hid and fed in the wilderness he goes after "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."(Rev 12:17) "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." (Mat 24:9) The deliverance is to be for those whose names are in the book (Dan 12:1). He will come the second time without sin unto salvation (Heb 9:28). Jesus said that those that endured to the end shall be saved, and the context was the great tribulation. Again and again, we see deliverance or salvation in a physical sense for those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (1Th 4:16-). All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture) 1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ. 2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why? 3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church. 4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13. 5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6). 6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven. 7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations: i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19. ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements. 8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2. The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9) 9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4). 10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8). 11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18). 13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10). 14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36. 15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8). 16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3) 17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31). 18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49. 19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46). 20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium? If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies. 21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming. 22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events. 23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it? 24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church: 25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20 26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2). 27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3. 28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4). 29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation), but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9). ‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10). 1500 30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials. 31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy. 32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels. 33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36). 35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week. 36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. 37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’ 38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever. 39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God. 40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation. 41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments. 42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium. ‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34). 43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation. 44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14). 45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation. 46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation. 47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?

This is a post I made to my blog site in 2015. It is still important and valid. This phrase “shall wear out the saints,” came up in conversation recently. It begs explanation and answers; at least in my opinion. Depending on what version of the Bible you are using, wear out is also translated as: exhaust, crush, hurt, and consume. It is the Chaldean word belâ, meaning: to afflict, and it is only used once in the Bible. The terms wear out and to afflict, say two entirely different things to me. One makes me think of the damage I used to do to my jeans during the summers as a child. We climbed and slid across everything we could. Mental pressure could certainly do that. To afflict on the other hand has a broad range of violence attached to it. I can remember the knuckle to the head in grade school, but it can also mean beheadings. Needs some clarity, doesn’t it? I asked, when does this take place, and is it possible that we are in it now? Does it imply a continuous action, or it could be at a given moment? Is it suggesting common issues of life or a constant threat of death? Allow me to apologize up front. This piece, as with most of my writings is long. There is a reason for that, and it comes out of conversations and sadly, disputes. The confrontations, when you follow the broken logic, could never end as every illogical argument seems to be thrown at you. Most of these arguments are easily resolved if the person speaking would merely read their bible, but they do not. They only read and hear what they want. That is why these become more of a visual conversation. One in which I could actually pull up concise information, such as quotes from Josephus, that clearly show why the answer is not always so black and white, or narrow-minded. On that note: there is only one way, and his name is Jesus. The confrontations are not so much on my part, mainly because my memory is shot and I am not retaining scriptural references as I once could. I think that this is the Holy Spirit keeping me in check, because I know me, and I would shred these false teachers if given a chance. Since I cannot, I often defer and withdraw. I hate that, but if I look at this in terms of a warrior who has taken a hit to a dominant arm or hand. They might be rendered ineffective, but you will not remove the warrior mentality from them. That warrior mentality can become a burden at times, primarily because there is no need for a full-on clash. Sometimes all you need to do is reason with people. I suppose I should tell you that I am still affected by learning disabilities and often find my mind disconnecting from the topic. This is particularly noticeable to me when I am under pressure. Thankfully, we have the Holy Spirit, and it stuns me the way he kicks in and gives me the words to say. I wish that happened every time. One other thing; I have also come to realize that I do not have to be heard all the time. This takes a tremendous amount of pressure off me, as I have come to realize that God is in control, not me. While we understand that Satan is the perpetual enemy of the believer, scripture tells us that there is a particular time range. Unfortunately, this wearing out of the Saints falls during is during a vast, nondescript period, the time of the fourth beast. The particular reference is found in Daniel’s book of prophecies. “Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.” (Daniel 7:23-26 KJV) I felt safe in calling the time of the fourth beast, vast and nondescript because we have a sharp clarity on the identity of the former three kingdoms. The last of the three was the Grecian Empire starting with Alexander and continuing through the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires. Although, we like to speculate that the fourth empire was the Roman Empire, which is not spelled out as the others were. The typical approach most use in determining what to call this empire, and therefore decide where the “beast” will come from is published in the book of Daniel, specifically: Daniel 9:26 KJV And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. If you have followed me, long enough you understand that this has two fulfillments. One came under the rule of the Roman general Titus and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. However, there is another fulfillment coming in the last days. Titus, the Roman general, is considered by many to be “the prince that shall come.” However, if you do your research, you find that the evidence leans toward a Middle Eastern people, not Roman. Here is what the historian Josephus tells us in - The Wars of the Jews - Book 5 Chapter 13 “.yet did another plague seize upon those that were thus preserved; for there was found among the Syrian deserters a certain person who was caught gathering pieces of gold out of the excrements of the Jews' bellies; for the deserters used to swallow such pieces of gold, as we told you before, when they came out, and for these did the seditious search them all; for there was a great quantity of gold in the city, insomuch that as much was now sold [in the Roman camp] for twelve Attic [drams], as was sold before for twenty-five. But when this contrivance was discovered in one instance, the fame of it filled their several camps that the deserters came to them full of gold. So the multitude of the Arabians, with the Syrians, cut up those that came as supplicants, and searched their bellies. Nor does it seem to me that any misery befell the Jews that was more terrible than this, since in one night's time about two thousand of these deserters were thus dissected." "Moreover, do the Arabians and Syrians now, first of all, begin to govern themselves as they please, and to indulge their appetites in a foreign war, and then, out of their barbarity in murdering men, and out of their hatred to the Jews, get it ascribed to the Romans?" In The Wars of the Jews book 6, chapter 4, Josephus tells us that many considered the temple a citadel for the Jews and an inspiration to continue rebelling against the Roman occupation. The fire had already been ordered against the gates of the temple, but Titus argued and verbally prevailed in regards to saving the temple. "But Titus said, that "although the Jews should get upon that holy house, and fight us thence, yet ought we not to revenge ourselves on things that are inanimate, instead of the men themselves;" and that he was not in any case for burning down so vast a work as that was, because this would be a mischief to the Romans themselves, as it would be an ornament to their government while it continued. So Fronto, and Alexander, and Cerealis grew bold upon that declaration, and agreed to the opinion of Titus. Then was this assembly dissolved, when Titus had given orders to the commanders that the rest of their forces should lie still; but that they should make use of such as were most courageous in this attack. So he commanded that the chosen men that were taken out of the cohorts should make their way through the ruins, and quench the fire." "Titus's retiring, the seditious lay still for a little while, and then attacked the Romans again, when those that guarded the holy house fought with those that quenched the fire that was burning the inner [court of the] temple; but these Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself. At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched somewhat out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard about it." Notice the reaction of Titus and ask yourself, does this look like someone bent on a complete destruction of the temple? "And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. But they did not hear what he said, though he spake so loud, having their ears already dimmed by a greater noise another way; nor did they attend to the signal he made with his hand neither, as still some of them were distracted with fighting, and others with passion. But as for the legions that came running thither, neither any persuasions nor any threatening could restrain their violence, but each one's own passion was his commander at this time;” I perceive this statement to be the most telling of them all, and it was said by Titus, the Roman general: “Moreover, do the Arabians and Syrians now, first of all, begin to govern themselves as they please, and to indulge their appetites in a foreign war, and then, out of their barbarity in murdering men, and out of their hatred to the Jews, get it ascribed to the Romans?" Titus’ fear was that the barbarity of these men would be ascribed to the Romans, and that is exactly what we do when we declare the fourth empire to be a revived Roman Empire. Do you not see that ascribing Rome to the fourth empire also takes our eyes off what could be the true evil of the last days, Islam? In recent years, I held the position that “the saints” were only those that were martyred during the seven-year period of God’s wrath, that we so foolishly call the tribulation. I did the very thing I despise, spewing out concepts as fact without checking my Bible adequately. Paul used the term saints throughout his writings, and that tends to dispel the idea that the saints are exclusive to the years of wrath. Several examples are Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Ephesians 6:8, and numerable others. The terminology saint immediately takes me to Revelation where we see things like the woman, drunken with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6). It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the largest implication here is the martyred saints. However, there is something notable about John’s writings. He never used the term saints in speaking about the church outside of the Revelation; the majority of the time he calls them –little children and brethren. The feel is one of association and an understanding of the heart and character of God. Considering John’s beginnings in comparison to the end, it only makes sense that he would have God’s heart as he unfolds the Revelation, a time of nightmarish destruction and judgment. This time is not directed at “my little children.” I realize that I initiated this conversation with a portion of Daniel, not John, yet they talk about the same thing. This demonstrates the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit. We cannot discount that John’s recollection of Daniel’s prophecies may have played a role in John’s terminology. When you look at end times prophecy, there are only three people groups to consider: the Jews, the nations, and the church. While there can and will be some crossing over between the Jews and the church; at that point followers of Christ are considered a part of the church. Some will say that God gave up on the Jews. I do not think so. He has engraved their names and faces on the palms of his hands. You do not give up something that precious, especially after showing that level of commitment. God has a plan to drive the heart of the Jew, his chosen, back to himself. Unfortunately, there is much pain and suffering involved with that journey. In general, the Jews have rejected Jesus, the Messiah, and therefore subject themselves to the wrath that is coming. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou had known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knew not the time of thy visitation. (Luke 19:41-44 KJV) The rejection of God by Israel is a common theme. An example of this is seen in the selection of Saul as king. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (1 Samuel 8:7 KJV) The nations could also be referred to as the Gentiles. Daniel referred to them as the people of the prince that shall come. Jesus, talking about the days of vengeance said, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24 KJV) The church is the entire collection of believers comprising the body of Christ. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:15-18 KJV) In general, the church is excluded from the wrath, or vengeance, that is coming upon the earth. But God proves his love for us by this (James Moffatt), in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:8-9 KJV) “. you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and a real God and to wait for the coming of his Son from heaven — the Son whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who rescues us from the Wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 Moffatt NT) The church likes to hold itself in exclusivity, thinking that we are protected from tribulation. Look, Jesus guaranteed us three things: In this world, you will have tribulation. You will be hated by all men for my names’ sake. I will come again for you. Tribulation and Wrath/vengeance is two different things. Tribulation is non-stop and comes in many forms. It has nothing to do with your inability to buy a new propeller for the family ski boat. Get real, people in parts of the world where there is a heavy Muslim influence are being killed daily. If you lived under a constant threat of death, do you think you would feel as though you are being worn down, absolutely? Perhaps the Bible in Basic English translates it more appropriately. Daniel 7:25 (a) BBE “And he will say words against the Most High, attempting to put an end to the saints of the Most High;” It is clear that the intent is to kill the saints. And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. (Daniel 7:25 LITV) Daniel 7:23 Declares what was to come, the fourth beast. If the fourth beast is Islam, then that was initiated over 600 years after Christ's death by Muhammad. Born approximately in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca,[9][10] Muhammad was orphaned at an early age; he was raised under the care of his paternal uncle Abu Talib. After his childhood, Muhammad primarily worked as a merchant.[11] Occasionally he would retreat to a cave in the mountains for several nights of seclusion and prayer; later, at age 40, he reported at this spot,[9][12] that he was visited by Gabriel and received his first revelation from God. Three years after this event Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that "God is One", that complete "surrender" (lit. islām) to Him is the only way (dīn)[n 3] acceptable to God, and that he was a prophet and messenger of God, similar to other Islamic prophets.[13][14][15] (From Wikipedia.) Islam has operated under various caliphates since the death of Muhammad in 632 AD (BCE). While all of them caused the Middle Eastern world grief, the largest most powerful were the Ottoman Caliphate. Ottoman Caliphate (1453/1517–1924) At the end of October 1922, the Allies invited the nationalist and Ottoman governments to a conference at Lausanne, Switzerland, but Atatürk was determined that the nationalist government should be Turkey's sole representative. In November 1922, the Grand National Assembly separated the offices of sultan and caliph and abolished the former. The assembly further stated that the Ottoman regime had ceased to be the government of Turkey when the Allies seized the capital in 1920, in effect abolishing the Ottoman Empire. Excerpt from, the Ottomans.org Is it possible that believers have been under attack for eighteen hundred years, without a doubt! Pay attention to another aspect of Islam. “The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Ismailia, Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in March 1928 as an Islamist religious, political, and social movement.[1][2] The group spread to other Muslim countries but has its largest, or one of its largest, organizations in Egypt, where for many years it has been the largest, best-organized, and most disciplined political opposition force,[3][4][5] despite a succession of government crackdowns in 1948, 1954, 1965 after plots, or alleged plots, of assassination and overthrow were uncovered. Following the 2011 Revolution the group was legalized,[5] and in April 2011 it launched a civic political party called the Freedom and Justice Party (Egypt) to contest elections.” (Wikipedia) Notice that this is two years after the Caliphate was disbanded. “Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoirs from that period, confirm.[7] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[8]” (Wikipedia) The point to this is that Islam has been a destructive thorn in the flesh of those who do not comply for over 1800 years. Have they been a global threat throughout their history, no, but it took a global response to subdue them in 1922. I think we can agree that they are global now, and a greater threat than ever before. Aside from that, their prime directive is to kill the people of the book, which would be the Jew and the Christian. Have you noticed that they are making a serious dent in their goals? If you have watched the news the last couple of years, then you are aware of Christians that are being slaughtered in the mid-East and African nations. Perhaps you have also noticed that attacks against any group outside of Islam are fair game to them. Buddhists, Catholics, you name it. They even fight each other as though there is a competition to see who can follow the Qur’an most precisely. Unfortunately, for the outsider, while the Qur’an does have passages devoted to peace, they are superseded by newer passages that demand a strict and violent compliance. I think it is evident that there is affliction directed at Christians in certain parts of the world. Not to be left out of this violence against Christians is China and North Korea. I suppose the question is, how long until this level of violence comes to the Americas and afflicts us as well? Do not think that your non-belief will protect you. In general, Islam feels that any American is a Christ follower and worthy of death. Scripture tells me that you may have a chance to reject God and accept Allah as your God of choice, bowing before him in worship. Perhaps that will save your neck for the moment. I am aware that they cut a man’s head off anyway, possibly because they felt he was a coward with no backbone. I suspect it will not be as easy as that, and they may not have the time to await your decision. Of course, giving into this cuts you off from any hope of a relationship with God. In other words, there is no turning back from this decision. If you do not know this Jesus Christ, you can. Ask him into your life, and turn yourself over to him and accept his forgiveness. Allow him to run it. You do not have to work for your salvation, as it is free and paid for, you merely have to receive this life and salvation. You will experience a peace that you have never known before and a promise that he will come for you so that you can live with him in glory.

The End Times - According to Peter - Part One ( part 2 is here ) While I generally do not think of the post-trib rapture position as an interpretation of scripture (I think of it as a collection of events described in scripture and merely stated as an online), there are those who would and do say that it is one of many interpretations. Certainly it is one of many understandings, I just happen to believe it is likely to be a nearly correct, or mostly correct understanding among many misunderstandings. What follows, however, is an interpretation. Here, I am examining words of Peter, and drawing from them, what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, but that is all they are. Matthew 24-25 is the most thoroughly developed passage in scripture which gives a chronological accounting of end times events. There, the greatest authority we could hope to have speaks of these events in response to the question: "WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of YOUR COMING and of the END of the AGE." My friends who are fond of advancing the pre-tribulation rapture theory, tell me that God's dealings with mankind can be broken down into different dispensations, and that this sermon by Jesus (often referred to as the Olivet Discourse) was directed to a different dispensation (not that of the Church age of Grace), and was intended for the Jews. Some tell me that the Church Age began at Acts chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit came upon the church at Pentecost, a few tell me the church age began with the church going out into the world, preaching the gospel, which is roughly the same thing. This dispensational view of things seems to have been developed by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s, and spread largely due to the Schofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. From there is spread into U.S. seminaries and then into the pulpits until it had become a commonly accepted idea in the churches of the west. I mention this dispensational theory, because if has an influence on how people read and understand the Bible. It is a filter, a set of colored glasses, through which many interpret the Bible, perhaps especially the book of Revelation. To be fair, most of us, whether we know it or not, or can admit it or not, probably view many of these things through some sort of preconception. We bring certain beliefs or prejudices to the text with us. Many read the Bible through Darby's dispensational lenses because that is how they were taught in their churches and books they have read etc. My own prejudice is that I read the Bible through the lens of Matthew 24 primarily, so this influences how I understand the bible also. Peter, never heard of Darby nor dispensationalism, but he was there for the lecture in Matthew 24. Since this is an examination on things Peter had to say on the end times, it seemed appropriate to bring up dispensationalism, since Peter had some things to say that might affect some of dispensationalism's notions. The context of Acts, chapter 1, is that Jesus had already been crucified, and paid for the sins of believers, and personally, I would have to say that makes a better marker for the beginning of the church. However, Acts 1 notes the following: 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” I would agree with our dispensational brethren, that the church began at least by the time the Spirit came to fill believers, if not before. In verses 6-8 we see: 6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the Earth.” So, there Jesus told them that knowing the times and dates, was not really their business. However, Matthew 24-25, was about knowing the equence of events and the signs of His future coming. He warned them not to be deceived, and gave them signs that believers could use to avoid deception. So Jesus had already given them instruction about the order of events to come, even if He did not given the them the actual time in which they would come. Now, in Acts 1:9-11, we see something else stated: 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” Take note that what is said there, is that Jesus would return the same way as He left. Now, if He left by ascending up into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, is it not reasonable to assume, that when he returns that He will be seen descending from the sky, out of the clouds? So, was Matthew 24 etc, intended for the Jews only, and not intended to be understood as concerning the church? Let's look further into some of the things which Peter said on the topic. In as much as Peter's Sermon in Acts, Chapters 1 & 2 was indisputably happening in the age of the church, regardless of whether one buys into the notion of dispensations or not, we can take what Peter says, as relevant to the church. In fact, in Acts 2:46&47, Luke says: 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Notice "those who were being saved", is that not a description of the church? Since Peter's sermon is therefore, applicable to the church, it behooves us to note some of the things Peter tells us. Now, in Acts chapter 2, just after the crowd is drawn to the curiosity of the disciples speaking in tongues, notice what Peter says about the event: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ So, there we just saw that Peter rightly noted that the Old Testament commented on the last days. The old testament points out that in the last days, God would pour out his Spirit on people. Not only that, but Peter says that this event at Pentecost, is a fulfillment of what Joel said. This means, therefore, that Joel was speaking of the so called (among dispensationalists) Church Age. Joel himself, described this as the last days. Notice what is included in what Peter pointed out from the prophet Joel's words in verse 20 of Acts 2: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord." If the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord, then we can be assured that the day of the Lord, is an event that follows the signs of these celestial events. It is interesting to note therefore, what Jesus had said back in Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the distress (or as many translations say "tribulation) of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. We have already seen that Peter sees himself as in the last days spoken of by the prophet Joel and that this period of time would conclude with the day of the Lord. We also noted that the signs that would proceed the day of the Lord, match up with what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation, namely cosmic disturbances seen in the darkening of the Sun and the Moon (Matthew 24:29). Peter quoted Joel as saying: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." It seems apparent then, that it was Peter's expectation, that the church should continue in it's task of evangelism, through the end of the tribulation, when the cosmic signs appear, and the day of the Lord begins. Peter, having been present at the teaching which Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24, would have heard what we see recorded in Matt 24:9-14: 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. This points out the gospel was to be preached right up to the end: "and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So, what we have here in sequence is: Jesus death on the cross His ascension into Heaven the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the spread of the Gospel the tribulation (people being persecuted, killed and hated because of Jesus) the darkening of the Sun and the Moon evangelism continuing right up to this time Christ returning visibly in the clouds (just as we noted in Acts 1:9-11 and in Mat 24:30) His gathering of the elect to be with Him, (in Matt 24:31) the day of the Lord is ushered in It appears then, that Peter understood both Joel's prophecy, and the instructions given in Matt 24, in a very literal, chronological, and interwoven way. While nothing said in Matthew 24, nor in Peter's sermon says that the Lord would NOT return before the tribulation to rapture the church, we should note that nothing said Jesus would return before the tribulation. We do see, however, that a return of Jesus to gather the elect after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord, is spelled out in the clearest of terms, so we KNOW that is going to happen. We should decide which we think is better, to speculate about things that are never said in the Bible, or accept the things which are specifically stated. I prefer the latter, and cannot in good conscience, go with the the speculation approach. This is the end of Peter on the End Times, Part One More Parts may follow, as Peter does have more to say.

Romans 10:18 -- "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their SOUND went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." The Helper, the Holy Spirit, is also ready to give us the double portion of His sound or voice. For those who welcome the Holy Spirit, He will give a new clear sound. People will be drawn to the sound right and left. Divine increase will abound right and left. Curses will be broken and blessings of God will be released. Now, as always, is the time to make ready our hearts for the Holy Spirit. God is ready to pour out gifts and freshness of HisPresence, and awaken our eyes to His goodness, giving us the double of His glory and the overflow and outpour of His blessings. Romans 12:12 - "Rejoice and exult in hope; be steadfast and patient in suffering and tribulation: be constant in prayer." WE'RE TO LIVE IN HOPE. WE'RE TO REJOICE. SO, WHEN SATAN COMES TO STEAL MY VICTORY AND TELL ME THAT GOD IS NOT GOING TO HELP ME THIS TIME: Strategies: I THINK ON THE WORD AND START REJOICING, I REJOICE THAT I AM IN HIM, I REJOICE THAT HEAVEN IS MY HOME, I REJOICE THAT GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN ME THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD. Tribulation means being under pressure. When pressure comes: I DON'T CAVE IN, I DON'T FAINT INSTEAD, I GO TO THE THRONE OF GRACE - I GO BOLDLY IN THE NAME OF JESUS AND GET THE HELP I NEED. I STAY "CONSTANT IN PRAYER" (I DOUBLE UP ON THE WORD) SO THAT I AM UNMOVABLE. 1 Corinthians 2:16 - "For who has known or understood the mind( the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ, the Messiah, and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart." First Corinthians 6:17 says that when we were joined to the Lord we became one spirit with Him. He came into union with us so that He can talk to us heart to heart -- His thoughts become our actions. He wants us to walk so closely with Him that we never lack power to overcome the evil of this world, and feel His heart of compassion toward those that are hurting or bowed down with sickness and pain. He wants to be one with us so He can reach out through our hands and fulfill his purposes in the earth. AFFIRMATIONS: I make a fresh commitment to walk in union with God. I give my attention to His Spirit in my inner man. I determine to yield to His voice and not the voices of the world or the flesh (senses)! ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

There may not be another verse in the bible with so much controversy as Daniel 9:27. I challenge the readers to read this verse in these different translations to give the full meaning presented by Daniel. I highlighted parts that seem different than KJV. J.P. Green's Literal: 27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator. Douay-Rheims Bible: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end. The complete Jewish Bible: 27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Peshitta - Lamsa Translation: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for seven weeks and half of seven weeks, then he shall cause the sacrifice and gift offerings to cease, and upon the horns of the altar the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue until the end of the appointed time; the city shall remain desolate. Wycliff Bible: 27 Forsothe (Indeed) o wouk `of yeeris (a week of years) schal conferme the couenaunt (shall confirm the covenant) to many men, and the offryng and sacrifice schal faile ( offering and sacrifice shall fail) in the myddis of the wouke of yeeris (in the middle of he week of years) ; and abhomynacioun of desolacioun (an abomination of desolation) schal be in the temple, (shall be in the temple) and the desolacioun schal contynue (the desolation shall continue) til to the parformyng and ende. (till the performing and end.) Miles Coverdale Bible: He shall make a stronge bonde with many, for the space of a weke: and when the weke is half gone, he shal put downe the slayne and meatoffringe. And in the temple there shalbe an abhominable desolacio, till it haue destroyed all. And it is concluded, yt this waistinge shal continue vnto the ende. Some have said that Daniel 9:27 is not talking about the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of. Yet when we see other translations, we see that Jesus was probably quoting from this verse in Daniel. In other words, Daniel 9 certain covers this abomination of desolation. However, Daniel also wrote of it in chapter 12: Daniel 12:11 (Peshitta - Lamsa) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be abolished, and the abomination is given to destruction, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Young's literal: and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety. Then Daniel told us of the abomination done by Antiochus Epiphanes: This is a TYPE of what the Beast of Rev. 13 will do in our future. Douay-Rheims Bible: Daniel 11:31: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall defile the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the continual sacrifice: and they shall place there the abomination unto desolation. King James: And armes shal stand on his part, and they shall pollute the Sanctuarie of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shal place the abomination that maketh desolate. In every one of these verses, the daily sacrifice is stopped. That means, ceased: the next day there will NOT BE a sacrifice. The Complete Jewish Bible probably says it best: "put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering." How can anyone misread "put a stop to?" Question: the theory that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is what stopped the daily sacrifices has been proposed on this forum. When we understand that the daily sacrifices DID NOT STOP when Jesus died, and did not stop when he rose from the dead, but continued on for many years, how can it be possible that anyone can still hold to that theory? The truth is, Jesus did NOT stop the daily sacrifices: these verses tell us it is the placing of an abomination in the temple that stops the sacrifices. All Jesus did was stop the NEED for these sacrifices. Comparing all these translations, and these verses: it is clear, there is an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease at the midpoint (halfway point) of the week. That abomination will be placed (or will walk) into the Holy of Holies, and then from that time, desolations will continue to the end. Question: since the stopping of the daily sacrifices and the presence of the abomination of desolation are found right next to each other in one sentence, can we establish a cause and effect relationship? i think we can. The Old Testament tells us if the temple is desecrated, it must be cleansed before Sacrifices can continue again. Now, what can we find in the New Testament that will confirm this? Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) How can anyone with common sense deny that this is speaking of the same thing we found in Daniel? Jesus is quoting Daniel! And Jesus is answering a question about the end of the age. This end of the age is still ahead of us today. Now let's examine this event: the conclusion from all the scriptures in Daniel is that an EVENT: the placing of an abomination in the temple, will cause the daily sacrifices to stop. And this event will be what divides the week. Question: how in the world can an event in our future divide a week, if we don't have an entire week to divide? It would be impossible. There MUST BE an entire week in our future that can be divided into two equal halves. The scriptures prove it is an abomination that will divided the week and stop the daily sacrifices. Jesus Himself put this abomination into our future (the end of the age). Therefore, if it is the abomination that divided the week, THERE MUST BE A WEEK TO DIVIDE at the same time. Then there is another point: the HE that confirms a covenant is the same HE that will break this covenant. Question: can anyone imagine that Jesus Christ would break a covenant after 3 1/2 years? Does GOD break covenants? It seems the scriptural evidence is overwhelming that sometime in our future, someone will enter the temple or place in the temple an abomination, and this will stop the sacrifices and will divide the week. Paul tells us that the man of sin will accomplish this. Comments?

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized. So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about: Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either: a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture. Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ. To those who want to reply in this thread: Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation. I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion. Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture. Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead. To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example: Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence. Thanks in advance