larryt

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will. You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions. This is exactly what scripture says. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. what is your definition of irresistable Grace? if you say that Calvinist don't say that God forces himself on people, then you couldn't have irresistable grace, some that God called could resist the call. as scriptures shows that some has. a judge is not always just, they are men, God is Just, not a respect of persons, he can't radomly pick you in and me out, after making both of us be born with a sin nature. yes you say that all are borned in sin and are condemned, but scriptures disagrees with You and says if we believe in Christ we are saved and those that don't believe are condemned already. you contradict election to say that all are condenmed, if all are condemned then none was elected before time begin as we know it, if some were elected, before they were borned, then they weren't condemned already When that term was coined the idea was that if God decided to do something man would not be able to resist IN THE END. INVINCIBLE GRACE is more to the understanding that I have. Men resist the grace all the time. The idea of invincible grace is that God will accomplish ALL His purpose. God never fails in doing what He sets out to do. Grace is getting that which we do not deserve. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Where does the faith come from? Paul tells us the the faith to believe is not of ourselves, it is the GIFT OF God. Eph. 2:8 I mentioned the actions of a Governor that pardons according to his own will as an example of God doing just the same. Just as all men in prison are guilty deserving the penalty for their crimes all men are GUILTY before God. There is none righteous, no not one. All have gone astray and deserve death for the wages of sin is death. God does not pick and choose RANDOMLY. He chooses according to His good pleasure. And this was all done even before the foundation of the world, before anything of recorded history. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, We ARE ALL born in sin and we are all condemned in Adam. it is true that those that believe are given salvation because Christ paid the price of death for those He chose and gave the gift of faith to believe. Those that were elect were elected to receive the pardon for their sins. They were chosen to be the recipients of the grace of God. How do you recond this verse. Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. It does not say that they believed and this is the reason they were ordained. It says they believed BECAUSE they were ordained/chosen to eternal life. The potter made the vessels out of the same lump of clay. The clay was the same for both vessels. Mankind is the clay. Adam is of the earth, the red man. The vessels are used for honor or dishonor. They can be the same shape and size but they are used for 2 different purposes. You are correct that God does not make anything imperfect. Man in Adam chose to disobey God. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. You have asked me to answer many of your objections. How do you explain: Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Is Jesus lying when He says He will not loose any of His people who were given to Him by the Father?

I use the OLB also. My Greek friend made the statement regarding Strong's though. He is close to 70 now and I have not seen him in several yrs. LT

This is how I have come to understand this verse also. teleios can mean perfection but can also mean complete, lacking nothing. If it referring to the Church as I believe that would make sense in either case also. I have a friend who grew up in Greece and has bore this out in bible study. Contrary to popular understanding ALL Greek students learn classical Greek in High School when he was growing up. He has always mentioned that the Strong's definitions are among the best and most accurate. 5046 ~teleiov~ teleios \@tel'-i-os\@ from 5056; TDNT-8:67,1161; adj AV-perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will. You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions. This is exactly what scripture says. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A fully agree and hope those that are there will serve the King of Kings.

Hi Dennis, There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. I rejoice that God did reach down and save you in '87. He finds ALL His sheep, and doesn't loose any. The world has changed a great deal since Nam. Men went to war thinking they were serving their country but in reality they were serving the interests of the global elite. Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened and many men were killed in order to further the agenda of the global elite. For this nation to be blessed of God will not take Christians serving their country but serving Jesus Christ. Christians will need to HUMBLE THEMSELVES, pray, and seek God's face, TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, and God will hear and heal the land. Only God can change the course of this nation for the heart of the king is in His hand. Having an entire army composed of "Christians" will not change things unless the humbling occurs first. LT

I just talked to a friend stationed at Ft Lewis, WA in the medical corp. In passing he mentioned there are very few Christians in the Army. I asked him what %, and he said less than 1% in his estimation. I asked how he got that amount. He said that was the amount that went to services at churches on Sundays. It was always over several yrs, he has been in for 14yrs, the same people. Very few new people. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He also said there are many more Muslims in the military than Christians. He could not say what percent. How you come up with such a huge difference is beyond me. Real Christians are a small minority in the world today and have always been a small minority. Your friend is dead wrong, Justin is right (70%), believe me when I say God is no stranger in the war zone. Plus out of the four companies I was mostly involved with while I was in Iraq, I only know of one muslim soldier. Oh and there is that four letter word again "real". What mortal has the power to say who is and who isn't a "real" Christian? Who other then Jesus Christ can make that call? 50% of the world says they are Christian. Just because someone says they are Christian does not make it so. Jesus described what a real believer is and Paul and the rest of the NT describe what it is to be a believer in Jesus Christ. there are over a billion Roman Catholics and all that believe in the priests as mediators have no idea what it means to follow Jesus. The battlefield makes believers out of almost all men and when they come home the never give it a thought. Yes I used the term "real" and I hold to it. My friend was primarily talking about on base here in US. I did not solicit this info, he was just talking about life at Ft. Lewis WA. And my friend is alive and not dead as he does believe in the Lord. He was talking to me about some of his concerns and asked for prayer along those line. I don't buy the 70%. It just doesn't fit with scripture.

I just talked to a friend stationed at Ft Lewis, WA in the medical corp. In passing he mentioned there are very few Christians in the Army. I asked him what %, and he said less than 1% in his estimation. I asked how he got that amount. He said that was the amount that went to services at churches on Sundays. It was always over several yrs, he has been in for 14yrs, the same people. Very few new people. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan. He also said there are many more Muslims in the military than Christians. He could not say what percent. How you come up with such a huge difference is beyond me. Real Christians are a small minority in the world today and have always been a small minority.

And the evidence that God chose them before the foundation of the world is that they knock, and seek and believe. And you are right about someone preaching another gospel they are accursed. I praise God that He chose me before the foundation of the earth to reveal His Son IN ME. How so? Why does He have to? He did not give the angels that fell a second chance.

I don't preach Calvinism, I preach Jesus Christ. I can discuss the 5 points of Calvinism as how they are derived from Knowing my Lord. And by the way Calvin never came up with the 5 points. I believe it was the Council of Dort in response to the spread of the teachings of Arminius. I did not say they did not choose. In fact they did make a choice. They chose to serve the Living God. And as I pointed out faith is the gift of God which was given to them by the grace of God, giving them that which they did not deserve. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Why do you think I teach they had no say in the mater? You certainly do not understand my position and what Calvin truly taught. Why not try to find out what I truly believe before you accuse me of something? God does not make the blind man look at something. The blind man cannot see. When the blind man's sight is restored he will look at things naturally. What specific scripture are you referring to? Again you cannot see what I believe and what Calvin taught accurately. It appears all you can do is erect straw men and knock them down. Please try to proof read your post so we can try to understand what it is you are trying to say. The total depravity of man explains this very well if what your are trying to say is what I think you are saying. Unless God stepped in no man would ever seek Him.God does not force men to worship false gods, they can do that all by themselves. God does give sight to the blind, life to the dead, He gives strength to those He chooses to and they are refreshed. If He does not give sight to the blind they won't be able to see. Blind men cannot see, dead men cannot live, lame men cannot walk and the carnal man cannot believe in Jesus Christ. If your are talking about Rom. 12:3 you have taken that out of context. Paul is not talking about every man that ever lived. He is talking about and to believers in the body. Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. The main problem with Arminianism is that it does not lift up Jesus Christ and it exalts man. It makes God a respecter of persons which He says He is not.

I would like to address this one issue of the FREE WILL OF MAN for the time being as I believe that it is not taught in Scripture and it is linked to the doctrine of total depravity. By the way I am not a Calvinist as you might label me. Most Calvinists preach a doctrine. I have a problem with that and that is one does not arrive at Christ through doctrine, one arrives at doctrine through Christ. With that said, I see you establish the idea of free will by quoting a parable. Parables are meant to explain doctrine not derive doctrine. There is a very important distinction that needs to be made. Man has the ability to choose, but to choose to do good over evil is not within the realm of man to do when it comes to God-good. The most important thing that man must choose to do is believe on Jesus Christ. The pharisees could not as Jesus told them because they were not His sheep. His sheep in fact hear Him and follow Him. The will is subject to the mind. You do not will something until you think to do it. But: By this the mind cannot even conceive of the idea to believe in Christ. The idea to believe, have faith in, is in itself a gift of God. God created man perfect and good, capable of choosing between Good and Evil. The problem is that man chose Evil in that he disobeyed. Adam lost the spiritual nature to obey God and that was passed on to all men as all are the offspring of Adam. He became a carnal man and all mankind with him. Man needs to have his heart of stone replace with a heart of flesh. Only God can do this.

Could you please point out the verses that teach FREE-will? Man has a will but to say it is free is denying scripture as you say. I have asked before and have not gotten an answer; what is man's will free to do, and what is it free from doing. You say tulip is a man made doctrine not based on scripture. I take it that you don't believe in total depravity as you believe in free will. There is a whole thread for this topic. I take it that you do not believe in unlimited election as you indicate that is speaking about the Jews. In the NT scriptures that mention the elect, which ones of these are specifically speaking of the nation of Israel or the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and not the saints of God? With limited atonement why would Christ die for those He hates. 4 times it says God hated Esau and loved Jacob. Will Christ loose any that the Father gave to Him? If God chose us before the foundation of the world based on the fact that we would believe then God is a respecter of persons, those that are better than others at making the right choice. Irresistible grace is probably the only one that is misnamed. I would say it is Invincible grace that really says that God will do everything that He sets out to do in the lives of His sheep. As to the perseverance of the saints I am counting on Christ to do what He started to do and I am not counting on me. He is able to keep me from falling, He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him. LT

Why don't you just explain what it is about either position you hold to? There are a lot of posts here but if you take the time to read some of them you may find that there are many that do not fit the mold of the poll question. Try reading at least the last couple pages if you have not done so already. And welcome to WB LT

1Co 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing [it]: for the fashion of this world passeth away. As a Christian I am here in the world and personally should not abuse it, but that does not translate to fighting to save it. It is going to pass away with a fervent heat and the renovation by God Himself will make even the creation New again. LT

Why can't it be both? The awful events of the 6th century will be miniscule in comparison to the events of the great tribulation that is to come upon the whole earth. One prophecy fulfilled more than one time. LT

Hi Justin, I hope you really do not think that I am blaming the service person in all my posts. As long as you are in the military do the best you can to protect this country and uphold the constitution. I do not know why you joined the Air Force but if it was to fight terrorism you believed a lie. The US has been the manufacturer of all the terrorist that we are supposedly fighting. Nor do I question your "devotion to Christian living." But this statement begs the question. Is your devotion to Christian living or is your devotion to Jesus Christ? It is not me you will answer this question to.. I am not worried abut how the military of the US is used. If you can point out ANY God Fearing, Moral, Christian Leaders I would vote for them. I don't see any and the elections are all fixed by those who who are trying to bring about the NWO/ One world Gov't. And when the day comes when the military is turned against the citizens of the US there aren't enough real Christians to make enough of a difference. But I am not counting on the military to protect me. I am counting on the Lord God Almighty to preserve me and keep me in any case whether I live or die. I will live here on this earth for as long as the Lord has for me to be conformed to Jesus Christ and not a moment longer. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. I really don't see a distinction between living a Christian life and devotion to Christ, they are one and the same. I joined the Air Force long before any "War on Terrorism" began. I am a pre 9-11er. I have found that there are many that are trying to live a Christian life but have never met the Saviour. I have read some of your posts and I do not doubt your faith in Him. That does not mean that as a Christian we cannot be deceived for a season. But as a Christian we will be given more light as we are faithful with the light that we are given. If we die to ourselves He will live in us and we won't have to try to live the Christian life. Before 9-11 I was naive about world events but had been presented with different view regarding some of the world events of major consequence. With 9-11 the media explanations just did not add up. The alternative theories made more sense and in my view are more provable. LT

Hi Justin, I hope you really do not think that I am blaming the service person in all my posts. As long as you are in the military do the best you can to protect this country and uphold the constitution. I do not know why you joined the Air Force but if it was to fight terrorism you believed a lie. The US has been the manufacturer of all the terrorist that we are supposedly fighting. Nor do I question your "devotion to Christian living." But this statement begs the question. Is your devotion to Christian living or is your devotion to Jesus Christ? It is not me you will answer this question to.. I am not worried abut how the military of the US is used. If you can point out ANY God Fearing, Moral, Christian Leaders I would vote for them. I don't see any and the elections are all fixed by those who who are trying to bring about the NWO/ One world Gov't. And when the day comes when the military is turned against the citizens of the US there aren't enough real Christians to make enough of a difference. But I am not counting on the military to protect me. I am counting on the Lord God Almighty to preserve me and keep me in any case whether I live or die. I will live here on this earth for as long as the Lord has for me to be conformed to Jesus Christ and not a moment longer. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Please explain. Do you believe that the USA is a Christian Nation? LT No. Hi man, sorry for the delay in getting back. I have found through talking to "church goers" that if they believe that the US is a christian nation they almost invariably think that it is OK to use force in almost all circumstances of defense of the country. Those that do not believe that the US is a Christian nation are split on the use of force for various reasons. Contrary to the popular opinion of the Christian nation of the USA, which was much more prevalent before the abortion era, the US was not started as a move to gain religious freedom but economic freedom. Yes many came here before the revolution to seek freedom of religion, but the impetus of the revolution was economic and not religious. LT

Please explain. Do you believe that the USA is a Christian Nation? LT

Yes I agree there is a time for war and a time for peace. My question to you is: Does that authorize the Christian to participate in wars of aggression against countries that have not attacked us? And like I mentioned earlier, if God is directing you to join the military you had better obey Him. Just make sure it is the Lord telling you to do that. LT

Well I for one would rather have an army comprising of 100% believers looking after my country's security, and I have served as one who was not saved. We made excuses for what we did.............. Hi Fez, The original purpose of the military is the nation's security, I agree. And if that is what the military would be doing now that would be great. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now in 2012. We have a contrived war of aggression against a contrived enemy for the purpose of keeping the populous in a state of fear. Just wondering, do you believe the US is a "Christian Nation?" Your position on this question is foundational to how you view the military in light of the Gospel. Let me say that I do not consider myself a pacifist. I am instructed to fight the good fight, war a good warfare, and the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Paul indicated that our warfare is not the same as the warfare of the world. Our warfare is fought with spiritual weapons. Physical weapons do no good. The use of swords, guns, bombs, etc. only promote the agenda of the NWO and the god of this world. LT

One of the points in Cabala is that if you KNOW the name of God and pronounce it exactly you can perform the miraculous. The ALL CAPS legal fiction is the corporate entity that is traded on the exchanges of the wealth of the nations. Here in bankrupt USA "WE" are the collateral for the fiat currency traded on the world exchanges. Your birth certificate, your marriage license, every thing that you ask government for permission to do is recorded and used as collateral for more debt money. And it all boils down to control of the populaces. LT.

I know the legal fiction in the capital letters just never hear that name before. I am not familiar with Latin but now that you point it out that is what it is. LT

I am over 50 but I did about the same as you did. I got 25 out of 30. I think some of the questions do not indicate any real knowledge about the US but most do. They are sort of trivia. Who was born in Texas?