freefromfaith

To whom, and through whom? to god obviously. Peace I notice you dont capitalize God... which means you must think your "god" as ordinary as everything else in this life. Heatherxoxo It saddens me that you think this life is ordinary. I hope that outlook is not preventing you from experiencing as much as you can while you are here. Peace, freefromfaith p.s. the small 'g' was really just tongue-in-cheek...I don't believe in god.

No, my issue is with your [notion of] god. There is a huge difference. I'm not trying to tell you there is no dog. Your [notion of] god has so many beautiful, abstract, ideas like selflessness and forgiveness, etc. These are godlike things. However, your [notion of] god also contains so much that is non-sensical and un-god-like (some of which I have pointed out here). Peace Once again your issue is with God. You claim that justice is non-sensical and not like God. How do you know when you dont know Him. You want God to be all love and mercy, but He is a King and He has a government. With this government come Law, and with this law come judgement. Once again you want to have the citizenship but dont want to come under the Lordship. You disagree with the His justice. Friend, this is an issue directly with God. Have you tried telling Him that some of His traits dont fit into who you feel He should be. If not then you really dont want an answer. Once again the issue is your failure to see that there is a god w/out the bible. Peace

No, my issue is with your [notion of] god. There is a huge difference. I'm not trying to tell you there is no dog. Your [notion of] god has so many beautiful, abstract, ideas like selflessness and forgiveness, etc. These are godlike things. However, your [notion of] god also contains so much that is non-sensical and un-god-like (some of which I have pointed out here). Why do I care? Why do I come to this forum to point these things out? It is because I think that the same thought processes that allow you to accept the non-sensical without questioning it are the same thought processes that allow humans to rationalize very bad actions against one another. The islamic world has taken this to the extreme. When a human gets tot he point where they can rationalize blowing up others and subjugating women, and so on and on, there is something wrong. Oh but you say this is America, nothing like that could ever happen here. I'm not so sure of that. Slavery was quite recent and quite rationalized by christians. We are currently killing tens of thousands of Arabs that had nothing to do with 9-11. Am I saying christianity is responsible for this? No, but the same fuzzy thinking is. I still know people who believe that the u.s. had credible evidence that iraq had wmd before we invaded. No matter how much proof they are shown they still have *faith* in gwb. Unbelievable. Peace

I have never said that I think people should be free to act however they please. My argument is that interpreting the bible as the word of god is hard to defend. No matter how many times you say "but it is the word of god" you still have not addressed the argument. So, what you are saying is this: it is ok that your [notion of] god rejected his responsibility for his creation, initially, by killing them off in a flood? hmmh, lets see, are there other stories in the bible where [your notion of] god kills his creation? Yup. Please answer: how can an act be immoral for man but ok for [your notion of ] god. It can't. Are you calling someone who does not believe in your [notion of] god a monkey? Peace

Actually I completely understand what you are saying. I completely understand the arbitrary distinction that you draw between his children and not-his children. Here is another way to look at it: you are anti-abortion right? What are some of the arguments you use to support this position: life begins at conception, life is beautiful and unique, if you don't want a baby then don't have one. If abortion is *never* the answer for a human parent, why is it acceptable to your [notion] of god? Peace

To whom, and through whom? to god obviously. Peace

Actually we do represent God's justice in dealing with our children. Also, being a child of God is different from being His creation. If you do not have Christ you are NOT His child, you are just His creation. When you are one with His enemy you are His enemy. The punishment that you are refering to is actually reserved for Satan, but for those who remain one with Satan will receive the same. I deal with my child different than I do with... say a dog. My child can do things that the dog could never do. Though my child may stray, and even to things contray to my will they are still able to be recovered becase they are my child. But let that dog do something that is contrary to my will (say bite me) then it is off to the vet to be put to sleep. Thats if I dont deal with it first. * Also I am not calling you a dog, but noting a difference. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God Do you have His Spirit bearing witness with your spirit? yes, but do you give your child that has strayed a box and say: johnny, here is a box. If you straighten yourself out *AND* believe that the box holds a unicorn I will love you again. However, if you straighten yourself out but refuse to believe the box holds a unicorn you will suffer eternally. Peace

The obvious, moral choice is to just give them the glass of water so they may live. so I ask you again: then why do you keep asking God for his blessings? I always check my gps before taking a turn I'm going to teach you math but you must start with the premise that 1+1=3. Ready: learn. Peace

I think we have reached the standard end to an argument involving religion (note that I still won't type god in that spot You will continue to say that it is gods way and we can't question it and I will continue to say that I think the bible is immoral and not reflective of any true god. In fact, this ending is so standard that we should probably invent a name for it. Any ideas? It would be easy to just stop think thinking about this stuff....but I just can't. I see this type of unquestioning adherence to dogma all around me and it never has a good outcome. Most of the people I know that support the death penalty and think that the war in Iraq is justified and think that torturing terrorist suspects is ok are christians. Doh. Peace.

oh I'm still reading. I just haven't seen anything worth responding to. I truly feel sorry for you guys if you can't see the truth in the equality of the two sinners in my posts. Yup, equal in the eyes of any true god. So you muslims/jews and christians, keep believing that the other is less than worthy because of this arbitrary distinction. I'm sure it made the Crusades much easier to rationalize in the same way it is giving the current crop of suicide bombers a way to justify their behavior. Yup, you just keep on believing that. Can't you see that god is so much more than what the bible/torah/koran depict? I will pray for you. Peace

I didn't say that. I said that one would expect god to NOT fit into a little human box but that the bible has many descriptions of gods behavior that is quite human and un-god-like. doesn't your bible say that god wants us to know him? one would hope so. are you saying that the flood is an example of his higher ways? Can you justify that? Peace

do you have a credible source for this? one again, credible source please. here is one: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm as to the ratio argument. If you have 100 people and 1 of them is a murder, 1% of your population is a murderer. If you have 1000 people and 10 of them are murderers you still have 1%. of course I would be very angry at first. But that anger would subside because I know that there are many many ways a human being can be so broken that they murder someone. I would NOT need vengeance against that person. I would certainly want there to be consequences. Prison is the current idea we have but I find our current implementation quite barbaric. I am sure that over time we will evolve our ideas of how to handle criminals. Many will be fixed with medical technology. Of course part of what hinders this evolution is the biblically derived notion of evil. It is so much easier to warehouse your prisoners when you can rationalize it with "hey, they are evil". Here you bring up more ethically dubious behavior from the biblical god. Lets see: someone we don't know from thousands of years ago does something god is not happy with and for the rest of time all humans must pay a price? How ridiculous is that. Do you have to pay a price now for your grandpa's errors? First, this thread has nothing to do with questioning boundaries or rules. It has to do with the biblical description of how god responded to mans breaking the rules. So, do you think his response, as described in the bible, is just and god-like? Peace

please re-read my original post. I'm not rejecting the notion of god or gods here, I'm rejecting the bible. There is a difference. yes, but where do you stand on the argument that an all powerful being would have no need of vengeance and would be able to come up with a different set of consequences to herd humans in the right direction? That is the point I'm trying to make here. Sorry if I have to question the bible. To not question it is..ya know...kinda robot-like Peace

yes, but where do you stand on the argument that an all-knowing being would not have killed his children in vengeance?

Actually I was comparing gods behavior to that of a 2-4 year old child. so what you are saying is that even though god could anticipate our sin, and even though god could anticipate his anger with our sin, the only strategy he could come up with to get us to play within his rules was to kill us? Thanks for backing up my argument. This is NOT the kind of behavior one would expect from a supreme being, even one with emotions. The notion that *physical* punishment is required to get a human being to behave a certain way is antiquated and destined for the garbage heap of bad human ideas. Am I saying that there should be no negative consequences to improper behavior? Of course not. We even have tools (god given if you are inclined to believe that way) to investigate the biological basis of behavior and help us improve our strategies for dealing with problematic behavior. Neuroscience has taught us that the brain is a very efficient pattern-matching organ. It has also shown that, although the brain can change over time, the brain has key developmental stages. If the brain does not receive the correct sensory input it needs during these stages it will *NEVER* build the connections that it would have if the sensory input was there. *We* have already come far enough as humans to realize that spanking children is an unproductive childhood "motivator". Studies show that not even the death penalty is a deterrent to extreme behaviors. Why didn't god know this when he killed everyone(almost)? Peace