Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, everyone. Now, here's where it gets interesting: In movies and TV shows, when someone dies, that's the end of it for that person. HOWEVER, that is NOT how it will be with the Messiah, the MASTER OF LIFE AND DEATH! When Yeeshuwa` kills a person in the battle of Har-Megiddow (Tel-Megiddo), He will be raising them to life again to stand trial before Him! Their deaths are NOT the end! If during the battle someone dies who was not supposed to die, He will RAISE HIM OR HER BACK TO LIFE, as He did for Eleazar ("Lazarus")! As individuals learn to accept Him as their Sacrifice for sin during the Millennium, God will justify them, and they will be IMMEDIATELY changed into NEW, GLOWING BODIES! Also, something to consider is that the Messiah, being the King of the Jews, then the King of all Israel, and then the King of kings as His Empire grows, He will be the Supreme Court Judge of His Empire, for that is the job of a King, just as David and Shlomoh ("Solomon") were! Therefore, His position as Judge will NEVER be finished. This means that the "Judgment Seat of Christ," or the "Judgment Seat of the Messiah," is NOT for some short while (like 7 years, for instance), but will continue THROUGHOUT HIS REIGN!

Shabbat shalom, everyone. Now here is the point to all this: Yeeshuwa` will not only be reigning for the last 1,000 years of this age, but for eternity in the ages to come! However, there is a change of hands after He has subdued all of His enemies: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man (Yeeshuwa`) [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; (1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him.") 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. So, after the first 1,000 years and the second, general resurrection of the unjust, Yeeshuwa` the Messiah will be subject to His Father, and God the Father will be the King of kings forever. Yeeshuwa` will remain the King of Israel and reign from the New Jerusalem forever. This makes His reign UPON THE EARTH FOREVER! And, that's the whole point of His reign! He wiil forever be the Mediator between God and mankind as the Son of God!

Shalom to all. We can read in John, John 5:19-29 (KJV) 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Now, please understand this: "Heaven" is not our destination. We were not created to "go to Heaven" when we die. Adam and ALL his descendents are destined to live ON THE EARTH upon which YHWH God placed them. Despite sins and the death and decay in the results of those sins, YHWH God will NOT lose in "a contest between God and Satan!" HaSatan is SO far out-matched by the infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and eternal God, that there is absolutely NO CONTEST between the two! HaSatan would LIKE people to believe in the Yin-Yang principle, that good and bad, light and darkness, or righteousness and evil are equally balanced, but that is a MYTH and a LIE propagated by the First Liar. So, God shall purge this earth from the evil and the results of the curse through FIRE. Then, He will rebuild the earth AFTER THE FIRE: Revelation 20:7-21:4 (KJV) 7 And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, AND DEVOURED THEM. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I SAW THE DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, STAND BEFORE GOD; AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED: AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED, WHICH IS [THE BOOK] OF LIFE: AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED OUT OF THOSE THINGS WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 13 And THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN IT; AND DEATH AND HELL DELIVERED UP THE DEAD WHICH WERE IN THEM: AND THEY WERE JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. 14 And DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 1 And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: katabainousan apo tou Theou ek tou ouranou = "coming-down away-from the God out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." And, we see this again in the words of Peter: 2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV) 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation!" 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD, AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER (the first skies and the first earth): 6 Whereby the world that then was, BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER, PERISHED (the Flood of Noach's day): 7 But THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, WHICH ARE NOW (the second skies and the second earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just before) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack (lazy) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (laziness); but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 BUT the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (the skies) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (the Fire) 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH (the third skies and the third earth), wherein dwelleth righteousness. This is the same "third heaven" or "third sky" which Paul spoke about in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4: 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV) 1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (seized away) to THE THIRD HEAVEN (the third sky). 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up (seized away) into paradise (the park [of God]), and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. See, we also have certain verses that must be true: Ecclesiastes 1:4 (KJV) 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but THE EARTH ABIDETH FOR EVER. Psalm 89:3-37 (KJV) 3 "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? [who] among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who [is] a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens [are] thine, the earth also [is] thine: [as for] the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, [and] high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed [is] the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou [art] the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD [is] our defence; and the Holy One of Israel [is] our king. 19 Then thou (YHWH God) spakest in vision to thy holy one (God's Messiah), and saidst, "I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty; I have exalted [one] chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, "'Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.' 27 "Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure FOR EVER, and his throne AS THE SUN before me. 37 It shall be established FOR EVER AS THE MOON, and [as] a faithful witness in HEAVEN." Selah. Just because the City - the New Jerusalem - won't NEED the sun and the moon, that doesn't mean that the REST OF THE EARTH won't need them! Nor does it mean that they will cease to exist! As we've read above, THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL EXIST FOREVER! Revelation 21:23-27 (KJV) 23 And THE CITY had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof (of the city). 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (of the city): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. The Hebrew word translated as "heaven" or "heavens" in the Tanakh (the Old Testament) is the Hebrew word "שָׁמָיִם" transliterated as "shaamaayim." It means "skies." It is a DUAL word (used for PAIRS) because there is a nighttime sky and a daytime sky. It was the name given to the expanse ("firmament") placed between the waters above the expanse and the waters below the expanse, and GASES expand: Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV) 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament HEAVEN. And the evening and the morning were the second day. The Greek word translated as "heaven" or "heavens" in the Brit Chadashah (the New Testament) is the Greek word "οὐρανός" transliterated as "ouranos." It likewise means the "sky," as Yeeshuwa` used it in Matthew 16:1-4: Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV) 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them, "When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!" And he left them, and departed. There are four other words in the New Testament translated as "heaven" or "heavenly" or "celestial." These are ... the adjective form of "ouranos," "ouranios" meaning "of or related to the sky" (Matt. 6:14 et al.); an adverbial form of "ouranos," "ouranothen" meaning "from the sky" (Acts 14:17; 26:13); a composite form joining the prefix for "between," "mesouraneema" meaning "in the middle of the sky" (Rev. 19:17); and a composite, adjective form joining the prefix for "above," "epouranios" meaning "above the sky" (1 Cor. 15:40-41). Only the last one is about an area above the atmosphere where the sun, moon, and stars exist. All the rest are about the sky or the atmosphere. As noted above in Revelation 21:2, the New Jerusalem descends "out of the sky," and therefore, lands upon the New Earth, for there's no gap between the atmosphere and the earth's surface. So, Yeeshuwa` is God the Father's representative - His Maashiyach - His Messiah - His Christ - His Anointed One to be King, and as such He is the One who will judge the justified and the unjust after each group is resurrected, and He shall be the One who resurrects them!

Shalom, again, BlindSeeker. Nope. Yeeshuwa` Himself said, Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV) 31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:..." The Scriptures do NOT say that He is currently reigning. Yeeshuwa` said, Matthew 22:44 (KJV) 44 "'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool"'?" He was quoting Psalm 110:1 This is repeated in Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42-43. Peter repeated this in Acts 2:34-35. Revelation 3:21 is probably the closest to what most believe, but one should look closely at the wording: Revelation 3:21 (KJV) 21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in MY throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in HIS throne." The throne (dais) upon which Yeeshuwa` was "set down" is in HIS, the FATHER'S, throne, not His own nor their throne! The Greek word translated "His" used in this verse is autou, which is the genitive, SINGULAR, masculine pronoun! He is set down on His Father's right hand, but He is NOT reigning on His FATHER'S throne! There's not a SINGLE PLACE in the Scriptures that says the Son of God is reigning right now! Yeeshuwa` also said this parable: Luke 19:11-15 (KJV) 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman (Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, "'Occupy till I come.' 14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, "'We will NOT have this [man] to reign over us!' 15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ..." Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God shall be the King on this earth, beginning in Jerusalem, as the King of the Jews and shall become the King of Israel, as He calls His people home to Israel. Then, as He annexes other nations, He will become the King of kings, a title for a "World Emperor!" In 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits (singular); (1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. (But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest [obvious] that "he" is excepted, which did put "all things under him.") 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Paul was talking about THREE Resurrections: Yeeshuwa`s own resurrection in the First Century A.D. in 30 A.D. was the first one; Those who belong to the Messiah will be resurrected at the Messiah's coming; and, the third resurrection will be AFTER the Messiah has reigned for 1,000 years and put down all rule and authority and power (Revelation 20:4-6). So, it will be ONE KINGDOM AT A TIME until all have been put under His feet! Then, the LAST enemy destroyed will be death (Revelation 20:14). I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If Yeeshuwa` is currently reigning, He is the most INEFFECTIVE KING there has ever been! Of course, this is TOTAL FICTION, which means that He is NOT currently reigning.

Shalom, BlindSeeker. Not trying to be offensive in my comment, but one should know that claiming the Messiah is currently reigning is MORE offensive to me! He SAID He wouldn't be reigning until He has returned! To think this is all there is to His Kingdom belittles His authority to take up His ancestor David's throne! Oh, and by the way, He will reign for MUCH longer than a thousand years! Revelation 22:1-5 KJV — And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and THEY SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER!

The original languages of Greek and Hebrew in which the Bible was written (or of which we have the oldest translations) were BEFORE English came along. The Greek word "ekkleesia" (which means a "called out" assembly) was TRANSLATED into the English word "church" or "churches" in the translations of the Greek texts into the English versions of the Bible. The English word "church" itself comes from the Greek word "kuriaskon" or "kuriokon" which means "of the Lord." This word was ADDED to the texts as a way to SPECIFY to which "ekkleesia" one was referring. So, we get the word "church" from the history of Greek, German, Dutch, Old English, into today's English. Here is the etymology of the word "church" in a common dictionary: "Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk." No, I reject this point of view. See, what has happened to the languages of the Bible down through the last two millennia is a DETERIORATION of the information, not an improvement! It's a form of literary ENTROPY, like playing the kid's game "telephone" for children 5 and up. The game is described like this: "Make the children stand or sit in a circle. Whisper a message in one child's ear and ask him to pass the message to the child next to him. The message has to pass from one child to another until the last child whispers it back into your ear." The way the message is garbled by the time it goes through all the children in the circle can be quite extensive, especially if a long message is passed! To understand the original authors of the Bible, one must go back to the oldest and most reliable sources as close to the original languages as possible. One should NOT put too much faith in the translation of the original texts as one has in the original texts themselves. The more time has passed and the more languages through which the original texts have passed hands, the WORSE the changes will be! I trust God to preserve His Word well enough that a person can still find God's justification for an individual, but we have a degraded message, at least in the nuances of the words being used and translated. Furthermore, the Greek influence of Christian theology that happened from the late 100s t0 the 1500s A.D. have GREATLY distorted the original understanding of the tenets of the Christian faith. Just because the oldest manuscripts we have of the New Testament books were written in Koine Greek doesn't mean that we should accept either Greek philosophy or Greek mythology, and yet, we had early teachers that pushed both! For instance, some claim that Yeeshuwa` used the word "Hades" in the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. However, the ACTUAL word used was "hadee" which comes from the root word "eidoo" meaning "I see" with the alpha prefix used as a negative particle. "Hadee" means the "unseen." It is NOT a reference to the Greek mythological place called "Hades!" And, this is just one of THOUSANDS of such misunderstandings because of Greek influence! I haven't even BEGUN to talk about the Hebrew language in the Old Testament, but the same results were found in translations of those books, too!

Shalom, BlindSeeker. All those prophecies ARE in the Bible and thus are just as infallible as the ones fulfilled in the First Advent! The Bible is neither an inferior compilation nor is it incomplete. One just must admit that there are some prophecies in the Bible that have NOT been fulfilled, yet!

Shabbat shalom, again, @Cntrysner. Regarding Ephesians 2:6, it's been erroneously translated many times, and we should take a very close look at it in light of the Greek: First, here's the King James translation within the context: Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV) 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (has made us alive) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Now, let's look at the Greek: 1 Καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις 2 ἐν αἷς ποτε περιεπατήσατε κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου κατὰ τὸν ἄρχοντα τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας· 3 ἐν οἷς καὶ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἀνεστράφημέν ποτε ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν ποιοῦντες τὰ θελήματα τῆς σαρκὸς καὶ τῶν διανοιῶν καὶ ἤμεν τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ οἱ λοιποί· 4 ὁ δὲ θεὸς πλούσιος ὢν ἐν ἐλέει διὰ τὴν πολλὴν ἀγάπην αὐτοῦ ἣν ἠγάπησεν ἡμᾶς 5 καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν συνεζωοποίησεν τῷ Χριστῷ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι 6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 7 ἵνα ἐνδείξηται ἐν τοῖς αἰῶσιν τοῖς ἐπερχομένοις τὸν ὑπερβάλλοντα πλοῦτον τῆς χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἐν χρηστότητι ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ 8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· 9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται 10 αὐτοῦ γάρ ἐσμεν ποίημα κτισθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπὶ ἔργοις ἀγαθοῖς οἷς προητοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς ἵνα ἐν αὐτοῖς περιπατήσωμεν. Verses 6 and 7 are transliterated as .... 6 kai suneegeiren kai sunekathisen en tois epouraniois en Christoo Ieesou 7 hina endeixeetai en tois aioosin tois eperchomenois ton huperballonta plouton tees charitos autou en chreestoteeti ef' heemas en Christoo Ieesou And this is translated word-for-word into English as ... 6 And He-raised-[us]-up-together and made-[us]-sit-together in the [places]-above-the-skies in Messiah Yeeshuwa` 7 so-that He-might-show in the ages the-ones that-are-coming the over-shooting riches of the grace of-Him in kindness upon us in Messiah Yeeshuwa` We're not already there physically in "the places above the skies," except in the Person of the Messiah Yeeshuwa` who is there physically NOW! Rather, "IN THE AGES THAT ARE COMING" He will show the abundant riches of His grace in kindness upon us in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`.

Shalom, Cntrysner. I agree; we SHOULD listen to what Yeeshuwa` said, and the LAST THINGS He said were these: Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen. You HAVE ADMITTED that the disciples - the apostles (sent ones) - could not do what Yeeshuwa` did; therefore, this is a WATER baptism! The word "baptizing" above is the Greek word is "βαπτίζοντες" which means "submerging" or "dunking" them! And, prior to this, the disciples were doing just what John had been doing: John 3:22-24 (KJV) 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 24 For John was not yet cast into prison. John 4:1-3 (KJV) 1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. Then, we read this: Acts 16:14-34 (KJV) 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there." And she constrained us. 16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, "I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And he came out the same hour. 19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers, 20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, "These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, 21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans!" 22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent (tore) off their clothes, and commanded to beat them. 23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely: 24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks. 25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. 26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Do thyself no harm: for we are all here." 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. Now, I agree that God does indeed immerse us in His Ruwach haQodesh - His Holy Spirit - for His Son's sake, but we should not neglect the OTHER SIDE OF THE SAME COIN, namely, that Yeeshuwa` said to baptize with water - IMMERSE them IN WATER, as well. We baptize with water - not for the redemption itself - but because Yeeshuwa` TOLD us to do so and for a clean consciencce before Him.

Shalom, @JoeCanada. Okay, I'm going to quote your original post, but I need to be able to break it apart to insert my additions. I don't know what is different, but I can't just break it with a well-positioned [RETURN]; so, it's going to require making quotes and cutting/pasting your stuff into those new quotes. And, in fair warning, this is going to be a long post. Just sayin'. First, Christians have been making a LOT of assumptions down through the last millennium! Some are not too bad; others are disasterous! IMO, one should DROP the "pre-trib," "pre-wrath," and "post-trib" labels and just start with the Scriptures. Come to RIGHT conclusions from Scriptures and let the chips fall where they may! Let's start with a proper understanding of 2 Peter 1:20-21: In the King James Version, this reads, 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Here's the Greek of these two verses: 20 τοῦτο πρῶτον γινώσκοντες ὅτι πᾶσα προφητεία γραφῆς ἰδίας ἐπιλύσεως οὐ γίνεται· 21 οὐ γὰρ θελήματι ἀνθρώπου ἠνέχθη ποτέ προφητεία ἀλλ᾽ ὑπὸ πνεύματος ἁγίου φερόμενοι ἐλάλησαν οἱ ἅγιοι θεοῦ ἄνθρωποι Transliterated, we get: 20 touto prooton ginooskontes hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee pote profeeteia, all' hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan hoi hagioi Theou anthroopoi. Translated word for word, we get: 20 this first knowing that any prophecy of-writing/Scripture of-its-own interpretation not is. 21 not for by-will of-a-man was-brought once/ever a-prophecy, but under Spirit of-Holy being-carried spoke of-the holy of-God men. In American English, we would write: 20 knowing this first, that any prophecy of Scripture is not of its own interpretation. 21 For a prophecy was not ever brought by [the] will of a man, but being carried under [the] Spirit of [the] Holy, men of the Holy God spoke. I've heard a MULTITUDE of misinterpretations of these two verses; so, we needed to clear this up first: This is NOT saying that a person can't understand the Scriptures on his or her own! Peter is telling us that the Scriptures which contain prophecy do not stand alone. They ALL come from men under the "inspiration" of the Holy God through His Holy Spirit. And, therefore, they do NOT stand alone! All the Scriptures that contain prophecy are interrelated because there is only ONE GOD! Therefore, we can also conclude from these verses that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS among all thr prophecies of Scripture. I agree with you that there is a difference between a return and a coming, and you are right that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming of our Master Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach 'Elohiym (our Lord Jesus the Christ or the Messiah of God). Have you ever looked up the word "shekinah?" It comes from the Hebrew word שָׁכַן transliterated as "shaakhan" (H7931) which means "abide; lodge; reside; or permanently stay." The word for "glory" in Hebrew is כָּבוֹד transliterated as "kaaVowd" (H3519). It means "to be heavy, weighty." Since it can also be talking about the "weight" of gold and silver, it is about BEING VALUED or VALUABLE. However, the word "glory" in Greek is δόξα transliterated as "doxa" which means "very apparent" like a wealthy person among the simple or like a bright white light among the darkness of space. Thus, it can mean "splendor, brightness." "Heaven" is from "Old English heofon, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hemel and German Himmel." It's secondary meaning today is actually its original meaning and its historically primary meaning: "2 (often heavens) literary 'the sky,' especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated: Galileo used a telescope to observe the heavens." The same is true for the Greek word "οὐρανός" transliterated as "ouranos." It means "the sky." It is the root and primary component of μεσουράνημα transliterated as "mesouraneema" which means "mid-sky" where the fowl of the air fly (Rev. 19:17). All of these Greek words are found in Matthew 24:30! With these translations in verse 30, we will read it as: Matthew 24:30 (KJV with alterations) 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the sky, and the powers of the skies shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the sky: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great brightness. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." THIS is what the Greek is telling us: It's not saying that Yeeshuwa` will come "from heaven"; it's saying that He will come "from the sky!" This may seem trivial, but it is FUNDAMENTAL to the understanding of how the Second Coming will occur. When "stars fall out of the sky" they are called "meteors." When "stars fall out of the sky to the earth," they are called "meteorites." Mark's account also clears up "from one end of the sky to the other": Mark 13:24-27 (KJV with alterations) 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of the sky shall fall, and the powers that are in the sky shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of the sky." This means "from the lowest point of the earth to the highest point of the sky"; so, "from one end of the sky to the other" would be VERTICALLY! "from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point." Neither Matthew's account nor Mark's nor Luke's says that He comes "upon his throne!" As a matter of fact, in Matthew's account Yeeshuwa` later says, Matthew 25:31 (KJV) 31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" This means that after He has arrived, He will take up His role as the King of Jews (and later as the King of all Israel) and begin His reign. *** Revelation 19:11 reads differently. Here's the Greek: 11 Καὶ εἶδον τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον, καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος λευκός καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν καλούμενος πιστὸς καὶ ἀληθινός καὶ ἐν δικαιοσύνῃκρίνει καὶ πολεμεῖ This transliterates to ... 11 Kai eidon ton ouranon aneoogmenon, kai idou, hippos leukos kai ho katheemenos ep' auton kaloumenos pistos kai aleethinos kai en dikaiosunee krinei kai polemei Word for word, this translates to ... 11 And I-saw the sky opened-upward, and look!, a-horse white and the-[One] sitting upon it was-called "Faithful (Consistent) and True (Reliable)" and in righteousness/justice he-will-judge and he-will-wage-war Note that it does NOT say that He comes "from heaven" nor does it even say that He comes "from the sky!" How does a HORSE FLY?! No, the SKY BREAKS and He comes riding to the rescue! It's rather like Gandalf riding upon Shadowfax appearing on the mountain top as the sun rises above the battle below, in the movie "The Lord of the Rings: the Two Towers," when He arrives to save Theoden, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and all those with them in the Hornburg! That's how it will be when the Lord Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God returns to fight! I'm going to finish up my comments at this point and just end with this: Many have a messed up view on the TIMING within the events of the Revelation. Just know this: Yeeshuwa` is not coming to "DESTROY THE EARTH"; He is coming TO BEGIN HIS REIGN UPON THE EARTH!

Shalom, choir loft. Actually, the Tribulation is already happening. It's been happening since the First Century A.D! And, this is a problem. One should NOT link the "Tribulation" with the Last Week of Daniel 9. That's wrong. I know it's "almost universally interpreted" that way, but it messes up one's understanding of Daniel 9:27 (and 26)! The MESSIAH is the one who fulfilled the prophecies of Daniel 9:27! First, look at the verses again: Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49), and threescore and two weeks (62 x 7 = 434): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks (> 62 x 7 = > 434) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (70 A.D.); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (1 x 7 = 7): and in the midst of the week (1/2 x 7 = 3-1/2) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. But, people don't read it this way. However, the subject of the verbs in 9:27 must go back to the closest masculine singular noun in the passage that is NOT in a Hebrew noun construct state (or in English, the object of a prepositional phrase). Thus, the "he" in verse 27 CANNOT be referring to the "prince that shall come." So, equating "the prince that shall come" to the "he" in verse 27 is the major, critical error that most make. Here's how the SCRIPTURES fulfill each of these predicates: 27 AND HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL CONFIRM THE (DAVIDIC) COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK (1 X 7 = 7): ... Look at how David was anointed by Judah and Israel in becoming king: 2 Samuel 2:1-11 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?" And the LORD said unto him, "Go up." And David said, "Whither shall I go up?" And he said, "Unto Hebron." 2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. 8 But Abner the son of Ner, captain of Saul's host, took Ishbosheth the son of Saul, and brought him over to Mahanaim; 9 And made him king over Gilead, and over the Ashurites, and over Jezreel, and over Ephraim, and over Benjamin, and over all Israel. 10 Ishbosheth Saul's son was forty years old when he began to reign over Israel, and reigned two years. But the house of Judah followed David. 11 And the time that David was king in Hebron over the house of Judah was seven years and six months. 2 Samuel 5:1-5 (KJV) 1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, "Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, 'Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel.'" 3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, andhe reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah. So, David was king over Israel 40 years, 7+ years in Hebron over Judah and 33 years in Jerusalem over all Israel. And, Yeeshuwa` too was to be king over Judah (king of the Jews) for 7 years, as his ancestor David was. But, the elders of Judah - the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees - didn't want Him to be their King! So, they CUT HIM OFF, killing Him instead! ... AND IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK (1/2 X 7 = 3-1/2) HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE, ... The time of the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews (the "Ministry") by Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was 3-1/2 years. One can deduce this by the passovers that occurred in the Gospels. The fourth and final Passover was near the time of His death (on the Day of Preparation). But, His death was the FINAL Sacrifice to be accepted by God. Hebrews: 10:1-18 (KJV) 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure." 7 Then said I, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." (Psalm 40:6-8) 8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein"; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days," saith the Lord, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. So, after the death of the Messiah, the "sacrifices" that the priests offered had no more efficacy! ... AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL MAKE [IT] DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, AND THAT DETERMINED SHALL BE POURED UPON THE DESOLATE. This we see in Matthew 23! The first part of the chapter is a description of the "overspreading of abominations" performed by the elders of Judah - the "Separatists" or "Pharisees" and by the priests that served in the Temple as the copiers of the scrolls - the "scribes!" Then, at the end of the chapter, Yeeshuwa` said, Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Thus, the Jews ARE "the Desolate." They are the ones left desolate by the Messiah Himself until the "consummation"; that is, the "conclusion!" Forty years later after the Messiah's death and resurrection, the Temple was destroyed. The "antichrist" is NOT found in Daniel 9! Again, this "Trbulation" or "days of distress" is NOT talking about a "seven year period!" It's been going on since the First Century, and will continue until the Messiah returns. The WHOLE 1,000-YEAR PERIOD since the Messiah left them "Desolate" is "the time of Jacob's trouble." It's ALL the trouble the Jews have experienced across Europe and Asia over the last 1,000 years! This is just a single incident among all the inquisitions, pogroms, Crusades, and terrorism that they have experienced over the years. And, it is ALL because they rejected their KING! Here's where the matter becomes simple: Since the Tribulation has been happening since the First Century, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a "pretribulational rapture" or even a "mid-tribulational" or "pre-wrath" rapture. We are fast approaching the END - the CONSUMMATION - when our Lord will return. And, Yeeshuwa` said it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21: Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mark 13:24-27 (KJV) 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Luke 21:24-28 (KJV) 24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." This "rapture" will occur AFTER the Tribulation. And, this is the SAME "rapture" that is shown in ... 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Most misunderstand these verses because (1) they fail to understand they are the same as Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and Luke 21:27-28, and/or (2) they fail to understand that we are "souls" or "air-breathing creatures," and there is no continuity of existence between one's death and his or her resurrection. They will also make the mistake of thinking "that God brings those who have died WITH Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus")" is the trip from heaven to earth instead of from the grave where they were buried to where Yeeshuwa` will be and on to the Middle East! Well, you're going to think I'm "wrong," too, then, because we're still IN the "times of the Gentiles" which is the time when Gentiles still trample Jerusalem. Jerusalem is NOT YET delivered from the Gentiles, for the Old City is still in four parts - the Jewish Quarter, the Muslim Quarter, the Armenian Quarter, and the Christian Quarter - and the larger city of modern Jerusalem is considered an "International City." I agree with you on these points. Again, I agree.

Shalom, @Cntrysner. That's a great rationalization, but it is NOT supported by the Scriptures. We are given the ordnance of water baptism, as well. Take it to heart!

Shalom, Cntrysner. That's an interesting theory, but the Scriptures do not support it. Instead, we find ... Acts 8:26-40 (KJV) 26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, "Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert." 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, "Go near, and join thyself to this chariot." 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" 31 And he said, "How can I, except some man should guide me?" And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth." (Isaiah 53:7-8) 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, "I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" 37 And Philip said, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Nope. Sorry, but that is NOT what one should be concluding from Mark 16:15. If one pays attention to the logic, "is baptized" is included in the positive statement, but the negative statement doesn't include its mention: "He that believeth not shall be damned (condemned)." So, baptism is NOT a "requirement for salvation" or it would have been included in BOTH the negative AND the positive! Ephesians 5:26 uses the WRONG GREEK WORD for what you are trying to convey; here's the Greek: 26 ἵνα αὐτὴν ἁγιάσῃ, καθαρίσας τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι, This is transliterated as ... 26 hina auteen hagiasee, katharisas too loutroo tou hudatos en hreemati, And this translates word-for-word into ... 26 so-that she is-made-holy, cleansing-[her] in-the-washing of-the water in command, It is not the word "logos" translated as "word," but rather the Greek word "hreema," meaning "a saying of any kind, as command, report, or promise." Nope. Again, wrong conclusion. The baptism of John was definitely a water baptism, but the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders reasoned like this: Mark 11:27-33; 12:1-12 (KJV) 27 And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, 28 And say unto him, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?" 29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me." 31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, "If we shall say, 'From heaven'; he will say, 'Why then did ye not believe him?' 32 But if we shall say, 'Of men'..."; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. 33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, "We cannot tell." And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things." 1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. "A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. 2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. 4 "And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. 5 "And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, "'They will reverence my son.' 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, "'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.!' 8 "And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?" "he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others!" 10 "And have ye not read this scripture; "'The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes'?" 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way. Luke also gives us an account: Luke 20:1-18 (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying, "Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?" 3 And he answered and said unto them, "I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?" 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, "If we shall say, 'From heaven'; he will say, 'Why then believed ye him not?' 6 But and if we say, 'Of men'; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet!" 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, "Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things." 9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; "A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. 11 "And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. 12"And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. 13 "Then said the lord of the vineyard, "'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.' 14 "But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, "'This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours!' 15 "So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. "What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?" 16 "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it, they said, "God forbid!" 17 And he beheld them, and said, "What is this then that is written, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 "'Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.'" And, Matthew attaches a few parables that Yeeshuwa` added: Matthew 21:23-46 (KJV) 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?" 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?" And they reasoned with themselves, saying, "If we shall say, 'From heaven'; he will say unto us, 'Why did ye not then believe him?' 26 But if we shall say, 'Of men'; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet." 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, "We cannot tell." And he said unto them, "Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. 28 "But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, "'Son, go work to day in my vineyard.' 29 "He answered and said, "'I will not': but afterward he repented, and went. 30 "And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, "'I go, sir': and went not. 31 "Whether of them twain did the will of his father?" They say unto him, "The first." Jesus saith unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. 33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 "And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 "Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 "But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.' 38 "But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, "'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance!' 39 "And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 "When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?" 41 They say unto him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons!" 42 Jesus saith unto them, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, "'The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes'? 43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder!" 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. "Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses, a thing shall be established." Don't add words to what Yeeshuwa` said! That's a DANGEROUS practice! There you go AGAIN! These words are NOT said "on the contrary" to what they were thinking, but were in ADDITION to what they were thinking! Yeeshuwa` NEVER said "being baptized by the Ruwach haQodesh ('the Holy Spirit')" REPLACED "the baptism of Yochanan the Immerser!" That's a FALSE assumption! It's also a FALSE assumption to think that "the receiving of the Holy Ghost's power" REPLACED the Lord "restoring again the Kingdom to Israel!" All He told them is that it was not yet time because "the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power" will happen in HIS timing! Again, I caution you against assuming that "but" always means "on the contrary." It doesn't! Most of the time, "but" can be replaced with the word "however." But, the contrast of two different thoughts doesn't mean that one replaces the other. Instead, they can exist together on different plains of importance! I also challenge your understanding of some of the more basic, biblical words, such as "spirit," "glorified," "preach," and "gospel." You may not even understand the title "Christ." Also, I've already explained that it was NOT Paul's gift to baptize. His gift was in presenting the arguments for Yeeshuwa` being the Messiah of God and the future King of Israel, and he reasoned both with the Jews and with the Gentiles in the cities to which he was sent. His purpose was to PLANT EKKLEESIAI ('called out' groups of people). So, his words in 1 Corinthians 1:17 are not to say that he rejected baptism, but that that was not HIS gift! He left that procedure to the leaders of the ekkleesiai he started.

Shalom, JoeCanada. One might also consider this truth: Bullfrogs NEVER SLEEP! They have short periods of inactivity in which they are merely waiting for the next victim, but they are ALWAYS AWARE! During mating seasons, they can croak all night and often in the daytime, too, as long as they are not discovered by predators. (Amphibians are NOT the same as reptiles. Amphibians have no scales or teeth; they have smoothe skin, and they spend half of their lives in water. Reptiles have scales, often have teeth, and they are NOT "slimy" but dry and rough to the touch, and they are most at home on land, although some are adapted to bodies of water, such as aligators, crocodiles, and some snakes). Actually, I don't think their "power has somehow diminished." I believe it's more a symbol of their URGENCY to make an impact on the earth and its inhabitants before their power is over! That may be so. But, to make this more real to people, one should know that "Armageddon" is a REAL PLACE that still exists to this day! The Greek word is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Har Megiddown," which means "Mountain of Megiddow." It is called "Tel-Megiddo" today (See Tel-Megiddo-Armageddon-national-park.) As you look at the arial shots of the mount, the farmlands below it to the north are called the "Plain of Jezre'el" (יִזְרְעֶאל or Yizr`e'l) is a 380-square-kilometer plot of ground that was often used by armies as a staging area before attacks. The "tel" or "mountain" was a look-out point for the battles fought below, it was also the "guard-tower" at the cross roads between mountains, where the Israeli roads, like today's Highways 66 and 65, now exist.

Shalom, Cntrysner. One may not "do away with" baptism for the simple fact that Yeeshuwa` Himself said to do so, Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (on the authority) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen. (Hebrew for "Truth.") It's not a command in order to gain acceptance with God; it's simply what Yeeshuwa` told them to do, having BEEN accepted by God! We now have the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) to DO the things that will please our Father! We didn't have that before the New Birth! Paul's mission was not to baptize, although he did not shrink from it, if no one else was available. Remember: Not everyone has the same gifts of the Spirit. Paul's mission was to PLANT EKKLEESIAI! Once an ekkleesia was established, the believers themselves would do the baptizing! Shaa'uwl "Paulos" ("Paul," named for his Roman sponsor, the proconsul of Cyprus, Sergius Paulus, Acts 13:7), as a Paruwsh (a "Pharisee" or a "Separatist"), was more gifted to share the apologetics of the faith with both Jews and Gentiles in whatever city to which he was led by the Ruwach haQodesh, and he often had someone else (often more than one) with him to help establish that ekkleesia. The new birth is like the neck of an hourglass: Before the new birth, one may try to do good works in an effort to please God, but after one comes to the end of oneself, and realizes that ONLY GOD can do for us what we can't do for ourselves, then he or she can be "born again." And, once he or she has been "born again," NOW he or she can do the things that God commands through the power of His Spirit, not to be "saved," but BECAUSE he or she has been justified by GOD!