mike2

I haven't posted here for some time and I love this topic it is good to see it being discussed. We so often think of God in terms of our worldly existence, I mean we try to understand God based on what the world teaches us about relationships. One thing that is prominent in our worldly ways is the thought of failure in the eyes of a peer or someone we have a desire to impress. So often in the world we are subject to the reaction of someone that is disappointed in our performance, whether it is at work, at play or in our personal lives and we fear the potential rejection that can come with that failure. As a result we look at almighty God in the same way that we look at people in the world. Something to keep in mind is that God is love (1John 4 8-10), it is very important that we take that statement literally and seriously in our understanding of Him because when we do we realize that God created us for one reason only.......to love us So often we think He created us to love Him and worship Him rather than He created us to be the object of His affection, When I realized that, all I could think was WOW, there's no ulterior motive with God!! (unlike some people) It is a completely one way street!!! 1 John 4:18 states there is no fear in love Don't be scared of God, respect Him for His holiness (His complete "otherness"... there is no other like Him) and realize that part of His otherness is is that His love for us is unlike anything worldly that we can imagine Consider 1 Cor 13 as a description of God He loves you greatly and definitely does not want you to be afraid of Him (He has shown us over and over again His grace in forgiveness) God is looking at your response towards Him as an indicator of how you are feeling His love and grace. Our love for Him and our worship is a response to the great love we know He has for us...we love because He first loved us

WOW!! I can tell there's years of thought here! Its going to take a while for you to wade through all your questions. They are all ligitimate questions and there are answers to all of them, but to get those answers in truth is going to require time and most importantly, a change in the way you are thinking. Not that you have a "bad attitude" its just that you are thinking like most people that are unspiritual. From the sounds of it, you are aware that there is a spiritual component to your existance you just aren't sure of what it is. Keep plugging along and may I suggest meditating on 1Cor 2:10- 14 We are brought up in a world that thinks of course, the way that the world thinks. A world that tells us to basically look after ourselves, something that started with, you guessed it, Adam and Eve. They chose to make their own decision, as soon as God gave them that one rule, He gave them the option to chose Him or themselves (influenced by Satan) as the guide in their lives....and today you can see where our continued decision to chose ourselves (worldy influence) has led mankind. Incredible proof of what happens when we choose selfishness (sin) over the other centered love that is God. Think about it... there are only the two options, the way of the world or the way of God. We have no control other than to chose one or the other. Its important that God gives us the opportunity to chose, otherwise we would be like the gold digger that married for the money- its not sincere true love, its love that is brought on by the money and not as a response to the love that is given by the millionaire. God lets us see evil, and He lets us see His love (check out the cross) .... when we see that, its our choice to respond. If God were to reveal himself to us in all his glory, like the money, his glory rather than his love would compel us to chose him. As it was, before the tree thing in the garden...what choice did Adam and Eve have to follow God or not? it wasn't that they were stupid, not even ignorant (you have to have a choice you are unaware of to be ignorant). No before the tree rule Adam and Eve had NO choice but God. True love offers a choice to respond Its all about other-centered love, try to look at it from that perspective. mike2 by the way- sin started with Lucifer (Satan)....when he decided that he himself should be in charge (Ezekiel 28:13...)(Isiah 14:13...)

Just got this quote off the internet but I believe it reflects the thoughts of a lot of people. It would seem that as the verses are quoted that ALL SOULS will be tormented forever and ever Revelation 20:10, John describes those in the “lake of fire” being "tormented day and night forever and ever." The expression day and night is used in Revelation to express the concept of “forever.” The lake of fire is described in Revelation 19:20 as a place that "burns with brimstone." In the saddest verse in the Bible, John declares that anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is "thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15). The first part of this verse is so often not mentioned ( as in this quote) and I believe it is crucial to the full understanding of the passage especially when you go back to 20:8. I'm wondering what you think of this when considering the mention of death later in Rev 20:14 Food for thought; In verse 10...who is tormented forever? In verse 14... who or what dies the second death? Is it possible that the term "forever" means final, never to be changed... eg. we are dead in our sins but can be born again through Christ, presently the unsaved can be changed, are not dead "forever". If the unsaved who are physically alive, are already considered to be dead (let the dead bury their own dead Mat 8:22), whats the second death in Rev 20:14? mike2

Dudes a genius Everything has been perfectly layed out, revealed in His good time and patiently allowed to come to its full fruition. The way he reveals Himself is flawless and could not have been done in a more perfect way Yep, genius

Got a nieghbour with a dog that doesn't stop wind blows...dog barks moon comes out.... dog barks stocks fluctuate in Bangkok... dog barks gun with a good scope...... It wouldn't be so bad if it was steady but its intermitent and we are just dozing off and then a car passes by in the next county and....dog barks Anyways after many conversations , discusing options and a call to the local authorities it continues. We now leave the window closed and have a humidifier running to create white noise. We'll wait for the owner or the dog to die Sure miss hearing the birds in the morning...oh for heaven

Saw the movie the other night because I wanted to see what all the hype was about. Its sad that we are living in a time where it is undeniable that we find murder a form of entertainment. Sure its not "real", but watching this stuff effects our spirit. That this would appeal to the youngsters and that those youngsters parents are taking them to see this is disturbing. Where does the chain break, does the generation that is growing up on these movies then eventually take their children to go see Bambi as the hilight of the week? I shudder to think where this is leading.

Thats the reality of our times. To many, Christianity is a cultural thing rather than a spiritual understanding. People grow up in "Christian " families , in a "Christian" country and so they call themselves Christians, when they really have no idea of what a real Christian is, they don't know the significance of Christ, just that they grew up not practicing other religions and any limited exposure to religion was in a church so, yeh, "I'm a Christian". I think it is really important when someone tells me they are a Christian that I take the time to find out just what their understanding of the term is. The thought of knowing that someone has it wrong and will continue on the wrong path because I didn't give them some advise bothers me to much. They already have some belief in God but but are missing out on the joy of knowing and understanding His selfless love. Like the dude in Norway who obviously has no idea of the significance of Christ.

so you notice you mentioned each item and put both at Christ's death... (below) as you can see by the enlarged bold print you have mentioned both terms... This spirit you are believing to be of God and is in your heart more important than written text and that you have no need of teachers for God will teach you is the spirit of gnosticism! You are to test the spirits and see if they are of God and god clearly instructs His children that knowledge of Him comes through the written Word by the teaching of The Holy Spirit! This is not a debatable area for me for it is so self evident in Scripture and my own Spiritual experience... Love Steven I already stated there was misunderstanding and so you agree is what I take you to mean. You were the one concluding Satan's "fall" had to be before the Garden of Eden. I have never read any scripture that verifies the fall happened when you say. I must therefore presume you believe the fall of Satan from heaven and the casting out of Satan from heaven are two different events, which I do not. For scripture clearly shows his place in heaven was not found anymore after Christ defeated him on the cross in Revelations. In any event I painstakingly gave you scripture for the purpose of proving to you through scripture that the Satanic image of god ruled in the vineyard of God during the Old Testament, and those who are held captive to this false image are his children. I gave you much scripture showing that they, the scriptures, testify to the Holy Spirit instructing a man and renewing the mind with the true Image of God, the Spirit of Christ. For Satan knew no mercy nor grace, he knew not Love. I test the spirits. I see the difference between Satan's mind and the mind of Christ even as I know light from dark. Even as I know thorns from figs. Satan's is a piety that scrutinizes the smallest perceived imperfection without any mercy or understanding. And in the name of God such harshness makes people hate God. Such vanity is hypocrisy, for we now see as do all in heaven, that Satan's own self perfection even found fault with God. I have been instructed concerning scripture by the Holy Spirit. When I was a child, the only book I had was a bible. I've read it since I was able to read. I was raised Roman Catholic and yet I never knew Christ. When I was older, I had a period in my life where I was forced to call upon God for He was my only hope, and in my darkness He answered. I came to know His Son and understand scripture only after He gave me the Holy Spirit. The scriptures were then open to me, and I came to understand the purpose of God and I learned how to praise Him through His revealing Himself through His Christ. I came to understand that the scriptures mean nothing without the Holy Spirits guidance. I love scripture, but I have never lost my first love. I see no gain in aquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I am any better than he who has never read a word of scripture. For this is the lesson of Christ who became sin so we could be the righteousness of God. This is the mind of Christ. I bear witness that the Love of God would die on a cross for the sins of man, while the Spirit of Satan would crucify God Himself in his quest for what he deems perfection. How is this gnosticism? Are you still testing me, or are you seeking imperfections? "Satan's is a piety that scrutinizes the smallest perceived imperfection without any mercy or understanding. And in the name of God such harshness makes people hate God. " I understand how you may feel that Satan is trying to have an influence in this conversation and turn it into the same thing that I have seen in many other threads. We do have to be careful. It is especially dangerous when reaching into areas that challenge a higher level of understanding. I think it is important to extend grace when exploring doctrine in new ways. Both to the proposal and to the critics. Regarding Satan, Rev 12 tells me he fell way before the cross. And the reaction to that explains the great joy of the heavenly beings at the time of Jesus' birth (v10). Heb 2:14,15 talks of destroying the devil , like one team would "destroy" another, they are defeated and no longer effective, they are still there but no longer have any hope of victory. mike2

Where the idea of the OT is satanic comes from it certainly didn't come from God. The entire OT is there to teach us how God wants us to act, act like someone He can call His child. We take the first books and show that man is not capable of ruling himself and how God set up guidelines, rules, commandments so we could walk in His grace. The NT are letters written to various people and congregations either chastising them for not behaving as they should as well as addressing many other issues. There is nothing new in the new testament that was not in the old or promised in the OT. Luicfer was there before man he is the one that God allowed to test man, which He knew would fail so God being the all loving, all encompassing Adonia who covers His people with His grace always layed it all out, God said if you do these things I will be your God and the books are showing how man sometimes walked in His ways and was blessed greatly or failed miserably and that caused God to scatter them to the nations. The whole bible tells of the fall of man and the redemption of man, if we did not have the OT the NT wouldn't make much sense, for instance James is written to the 12 tribes abroad, to the dispersed tribes, would people understand that God is restoring Israel by just reading the NT? Would anyone know when the signs and things to look for His return if not for the OT? After all God tells us specifically that He reveals the end in the beginning so how can the OT be satanically influenced if God set godly men to write His instruction and as we are told all scripture is given to us for our benefit and the apostles were talking not about the NT but the OT since the NT was not written or compiled. Certainly satan has an influence on all generations if a person is not walking in God's light, no more so than today there is much more influence of satan today than when our ancestors were walking the earth. Your statement that the OT outlines what life was like without Messiah is kinda weird, they knew God, they had living breathing prophets who heard Gods voice, they knew there was a Messiah coming and anxiously awaited His arrival. If your statement is true then we are also living in OT times because we do not have a Messiah sitting on an earthly throne, we do not 'see' Him face to face, we are in the same position as the OT believers, waiting for our Messiah to come and bring us into His Kingdom. shalom, Mizz Mizz In no way did I say that the OT was Satanic!!! When the Law was introduced there was a standard by which sin could be identified by all men. The OT is full of stories of Satans influence on man and how he leads us to sin I am NOT saying that somehow Satan influenced the writing rather the writing is reporting Satans influence. It has to be made clear to man that his influence is in the world and that even with rules we are incapable of completely resisting that influence, we are totally helpless and need another way to come into the presence of God. So I say much of the writings are based on the influence Satan has on us. Like you said "The entire OT is there to teach us how God wants us to act, act like someone He can call His child." Without Satan how will we know how not to act? I see in Childeye someone that is intelligent and trying to communicate his understanding in his way of speaking based on some abstract thinking, try to find the nuggets and encourage where the doctine is wrong. I hear some good advice from others that are well versed and knowledgable, don't get defensive but look for the nuggets. I think a lot can be learned if it is presented gently and we acknowledge where we agree. Thats why I am here from time to time. Which reminds me- off to bible study. Peace and blessings mike2

Childeye, In a strange way I think I understand what you are saying. By God introducing the Law, satan can now be identified based on a median. So much of the Old Testament is based on satanic influence and it outlines what life without Christ is like. The New Testament shows us what life with Christ is like. In regards to choice; I believe the only choice we can truly call our own, is to choose to follow Christ, everything else we do is a reaction to spiritual forces, of one degree or another. Pursueing an intimacy with God allows us to better react to His direction. Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. All men, saved and unsaved, are subject to this wrestling. Blessed are those that realize this and look to Christ for help and sustenance, those that don't, just run around on their own trying to put out fires . mike2 I would like to add that I think the correspondance in this thread amongst people with different understanding has probably been the most pleasant I have seen on this site. God bless you and those you set the example for. m

I think that if we look at 1Cor 13 and see the description of love we will see that love requires an effort. Anyone that has been married or in a relationship for more than a couple of years knows that the stimulation of the initial attraction starts to subside. In fact there are times in relationships where you don't much like that person for some reason but the love that you are working on (see1Cor 13) sustains the relationship. The result is a deeper and stronger relationship and true love that is reciprocated. I think a tired parent with teenagers going through puberty knows exactly what I mean. Now liking some one, I don't think we have any control over that. For some reason we either like them or we don't. We can love someone we don't like, we can love someone we don't know, especially in the context of these verses. How else can we step out into the world as the Lord calls us? I don't know what to believe when I met my wife, whether it was love or an extreme case of like that turned into love as a result of getting to know her and the work of 1Cor 13 started having its effect. I do believe that if one is married and looks to something exramarital, that it is based on carnal desire and it would be lust simply because somehow the work of loving their spouse has stopped and love is not present. We love because He first loved us (1John 4:19) the love we share is coming from God. i would question that in an extramarital affair or even that of the co-worker that seems to "fall in love" every month. mike2

I sometimes wonder what makes the differance between someone who is a theif and someone that would'nt steal a penny. Whats the difference between someone who is an adulterer and someone that is faithful. The differance between someone promiscuous or immoral and someone that is virtuous. No temptation has overtaken you that is unusual for human beings. But God is faithful, and he will not allow you to be tempted beyond your strength. Instead, along with the temptation he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to endure it. 1Co 10:13 What about someone that has a homosexual tendancy. Everyone of the above is a temptation that is brought on by any number of devious and sometimes horrible ways that Satan my chose to influence us. Its whether we give into the temptation or not that makes the differance All temptation is designed to somehow or another draw us away from God, whether by giving into it or becoming doubtful of our worthiness when we even consider it. It could very well be that the evil that was perpetrated on you is doing that, especially if that was your first sexual experience or one that has had a major influence in your life. It may not be what you would have wanted, but nevertheless it is there. I agree that somehow you have to put it in the past, you'll never forget it (and maybe you shouldn't), but its influence can be minimized. I believe in looking to resolve this with God you are on the right track and I believe that the other posters have been giving you some very good direction on exactly how our loving God feels about you. One thing you will get out of this is a very deep empathy for people you will meet in your life that will go through this same thing that you are now. That may be a reason not to forget it or a way to channel the experience into something positive. I love what 1Co 10:13 says, it gives me hope and a sense of security that Christ, my leader, is watching after me. God loves you and will give you the strength and direction. Talk to Him and look for the way out that He provides. Because he himself (Jesus) suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (my referance)Heb 2:18 Often it isn't easy, but like lifting weights, the harder they are to lift, the stronger you get. Eventually, in trusting Him, together you will work your way through this. blessings, mike2

Hi Alaandme, Jesus said "No one comes to me unless the father draws him" (John 6:44) God does this in many ways and more often than not very gently. He also said that if we move towards Him he will move towards us (James 4:7 -8.) I think God is drawing you, it is evident you are moving toward Him and I believe that as long as you do He will make Himself better known to you. In your quest may I suggest to you that you look at what Christianity and Islam tell you to do in order for you to come into the presence of a perfect God. Keeping in mind that perfection cannot be tainted. Christianity is the only faith that I know of that states 'it is not by our works that we get to God'. As you seek God may I suggest you keep that in mind and consider a logical explanation of why that is so. You can start in Genesis with Adam and Eve. Its not what they did that got them into the garden, its what they did that got them... How do you (or any man) relate to that story. If you think I may be of any help in your journey feel free to e-mail me privately. May you feel Gods thoughts ( his Holy Spirit) working in your life as you seek Him out. mike2

I've seen a couple of replies that I quite agree with. I gotta say, if you are concerned about people snickering, then I suspect you are praying to people. I say that with empathy because it is something that I struggle with when I pray publicly. So often our public prayer contains a component that is intended to bring others closer to God, and thats good. Where it becomes a problem is when that, rather than our approach to God becomes the focus , because then the fear of not impressing people with our eloquence settles in and we become focused on that. We then become, self - centered, rather than God centered. Check out John 16:26, you should look at that in the context of the surrounding verses and other scripture that says to..' ask in Jesus name'. What is Jesus saying about our prayer and whats behind it? How does it fit in with us "signing off"..."in Jesus name". I say this because I see a lot of things in prayer that we do because we think that its the "proper "way to pray and we aren't thinking of the important reason of why we are praying. Personally I feel blessed that I am nervous about public prayer. When I am, I'm concerned about my motivation and if I would be honoring God when I speak. Blessings, mike2

In case anyone is interested in John Bowen's book Evangelism for

John Bowen writes an excellent book on Evangelism. Its an easy read and I wish more Christians would read it. I think that the most important thing to keep in mind is that it is God, through His Holy Spirit, touching someone through us. And He's using us for a particular part in a persons journey to bring them closer to Him. It may be that a simple thing done in Christs love is that one little piece of a much bigger puzzle that fits in at just this time and it makes the picture a little clearer for that person. " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him... "John 6:44 Its not us doing it, we are but a part of a much bigger thing. Bowen draws an excellent example from the apostle Paul in Athens in that he looked to see what the people understood of God and revealed more of Him based on that understanding. Paul didn't convert many in Athens, but he did leave a pebble in a lot of shoes that caused them to think about God a little more. God may very well intend for someone else to come along after us or maybe we bump into that person again and they get yet another piece of the puzzle. He's patient, and so we should be. The best advise I could give you is to surround yourself with people that make Jesus the focus of the way they live their life. People that are comfortable talking about Jesus and God. People that you can pray with and talk about God like people talk about the game last night or a hobby that they have in common. Talking about God to others just becomes a lot easier, you'll know if they don't want to talk the same way you'll know if someones not interested in the game. In that case just talk about something else. You know you can lead a horse to water... and you can make him drink...just shove his face in, he'll drink it or inhale it. But he won't like it. We aren't the ones doing the converting, and we may not ever see the effect that short moment of letting the Lord lead us has. We don't need to "close the deal", we need to follow the Spirits leading. Knowing that takes a load off my shoulders. Enjoy our Lords love and don't be afraid to share it ...lovingly and patiently, trusting His work in you and that it is not only the person you are talking to that God is trying to draw closer. He's also drawing you in your trusting His work. Blessings, Mike2

Hope this helps: There was a time when all the angels that ever will be, were created Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.(KJV, ASV) Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Satan was in the garden blessings mike2

So often we look at our relationship with God in terms we understand, that is the physical worldly way. We forget about our spiritual lives. We have a body - a physical tent that we walk around this earth in --- body ---- We see Christ . He changed to a heavenly body , so will we We have a soul - that is the very life in us---- soul ---- We know God is the source of all life We have a spirit - it decides what we allow our body and soul to do ---- spirit ---- The thoughts and desires of God are sent through his Holy Spirit We, man and woman, are made in the image of God This goes a long way to explaining "spiritual death", wereby the soul lives forever, but the spirit of God is not present. Now that would be hell.

May I suggest you read Romans. By the time you get to Ch 7, with Gods help, you should come to an understanding Pay particular attention to Romans ch 4&5 I have found that the way Paul writes this, it can be a little on the "heady" side- you really have to think about it. But I believe it is the only way it can best be explained. It wasn't until I let the Holy Spirit teach me, that I have begun to get an understanding of the imense truth, and purpose of Gods Law Also keep in mind that we are living 2 lives at the same time - a physical and a spiritual blessings mike 2

No one ever talked to me about Christ....ever. Me and the Lord kinda found each other and we went from there. Man, If you're comfortable with it, I would really like to hear your story! How it happened. mike2

I think so. The pulpit should be used for building up Christs church, not some politicians chance of election. Now if it was that a biblically based sermon, intending to effect Christian growth, was delivered, thats a different story. I would wonder though; how does that reflect the hearts of that church, or its leaders? mike2

Todd, do you have referances regarding where your information comes from. I would be interested in reading the material. mike2

Muslims believe in God Naturalists believe in God I would imagine we would see quite a different answer if we were to ask - HOW do you believe in God, how do you express/ live out, your belief? or; WHO is God to you?