mike2

Maybe you are a bit on the insane side,I dont know, but its not enough to keep you from looking for help, thats good. You know you are having difficult times, thats good, when you get angry with people you feel bad about it, recognizing that, is good. Those are positive things I know when I get angry with people its ususally because I have a lot of worries on my mind. Do you have a lot of worries on your mind? Smiley, God loves you, I love you, and all the people here love you mike

Wade on in! What is your perspective? Do you think when witnessing we need to get straight to the salvation part, or do you think we should take a little more time talking about the Christian life first?

Openly Curious said; I came to the lord' Do you think that is just an expression, of searching and finding?

My Mom wanted me to tell her things about the Holy Spirit..I thought to myself that she was not ready to hear it yet..she died and never heard it.... It took me a long time to get over that..if I ever have.. Tomorrow you say???... NO...Today is the day... I may be coming across as a procrastinator but thats not my intention, what I am saying is that we sometimes jump to what may be percieved as a threat... believe in Jesus or go to hell... without really explaining what, how and why, maybe we need to slow down and take the time the God is allowing us. Tah, you have brought up something interesting. I dont know what your thoughts are on your mothers salvation, and its not my intention to pursue those thoughts, but you are making me wonder, because I think it has happened to all of us at one time or another...... ....you and I cant give salvation, we can only talk of it, if someone asks about salvation and we cant reply with what we believe is an adequate answer, does that mean they may not be saved .....because of us? Does the weight of their salvation fall on our shoulders depending on our answer?

Salvation...you cannot have a christian life without it...its a contridiction in terms. No put that way...yes if you believe in him your saved, (thats what my Bible tells me). only hypocritical if you say you believe in him and dont walk the walk. you only used two reasons..lets look at the second one you wrote...salvation...your being saved from what? eternal damnation...so the second one differs from the first...how? Personally I chose Christ not for an excape route...or salvation...I chose him because he loved me enough before I was even thought of to die for something I had not yet done. The other (second?) reason would be to have a relationship with God, and how that relationship is lifechanging.

It was a long time for me before I understood the significance of Christs death and the reason why it had to be Him. I accepted Jesus as my saviour because of what He taught me, from what I read in the bible, years before I understood His death. I knew He did something very important for me, I knew I was safe with God in my life, but I didnt understand how or why. People would tell me it was through His death that my sin was washed away (huhhh?). I didnt know how that worked, but I accepted it, and believed, that in His time ,God would give me the understanding, which He did. Are we too focused on telling people they are sinners and need to be saved (kind of hard to win them over when you "insult" them)? Are we spending enough time talking about how acknowledging and following Jesus teachings can change our lives for the better? Why do we think it has to be right now that people change?, what is the urgency? Think about it... if God has put me in their life to tell them about Him..... He's going to give me all the time I need. It kind of makes me think about breaking a horse, you can "bust it" like the wild west cowboys did , or you can be gentle and take your time to bring them along like Robert Redford did in The Horse Whisperer. What about someone that is living with sin and basically knows that Jesus was born on Christmas, Noah built a boat and Moses parted the sea. How would you handle that? Would you bust em', or would you be a horse whisperer? Do you think that we can be impatient, focus too much on salvation and, not take the time to relate how a relationship with God can effect the here and now of a persons life?

Is your salvation the only reason to become a Christian. As a non believer would you think it is kind of shallow to believe in God just to save your butt. I saw in a thread just the other day someone that would not accept God for that excuse, because, obviously, all they know of God is if you dont believe in Him you go to hell. With that in mind, believing in God for that reason, is, rightly, hypocritical. Why should we accept God other than for our salvation and should we be using those examples and reasons when we witness?

For the record I believe that homosexuality is a sin. What I see happening over and over again is the ridiculuos argument of wether they should be allowed to marry or not. We have to step back and realize that that argument is distracting us from the real issue of wether homosexuality is a sin or not. If it is considered a sin and the couple still choose to practice, wether they are Christians or not, wether they claim to be Christians or not, they are still sinning. AND wether they choose to get married is really irrelevant. Where I draw the line is when the CHURCH condones it by saying its OK. All that will do, is what it is doing now, it is dividing us because of the love we feel for sinners, and, because of our own sin, we are afraid to tell others of their sin ( really we are just serving ourselves then). In the face of so much biblical evidence, not only about the act of homosexuality, but about how we should be careful not to mislead others, why would a Christian choose to push the acceptance of their homosexuality on others. Second eve, I understand you are an atheist, but to understand my train of thought, grab your bible and check out 1 Cor 8:10, 11 (maybe to get the jest of the context read a bit before), also Eric, after your last comment, I would suggest a recap as well And second eve, in His time, God will make Himself unbelievably known to you Please, please, please, let me be the first to know in Gods love mike2

Isnt it neat how the Lord can put something on your heart because it is that specific time in your spirtual growth that He is teaching you something new. I have noticed this from time to time when I look at a passage and it either becomes clear to me or I just cant get it out of my mind. Its amazing all the other things I learn in the pursuit of understanding that passage,...sometimes the journey..... Someone plants a seed, someone keeps the weeds down, someone picks the apple, someone sorts them, someone packages them, takes them to market ........ They're not all the same people, they are all labourers. I dont believe all of us have to preach salvation, maybe mine or your calling is to preach love, or community, or the satisfaction of not getting uptight over materialism. Maybe one thing today and another tommorow Maybe we are the ones that plant the seed of curiousity or water the seed of knowledge, (even just todays sprinkle). As God leads me to understand a passage He also then leads me to my labour , and, I believe, day by day. (Think about it, wow! you never know what to expect) Being a labourer for God is very, very diverse. None of us knows how far reaching our actions are, but if we strive to do all things as close to the way Jesus would do it, love, compassion, listening ... we are His labourers. Unkown numbers of people have turned to God and accepted Jesus because a Christian did a very simple, selfless thing for them, something that Christian, didnt even know was significant. Obviously though, they were known as Christians to those people. We dont have to be a teacher or preacher to be effective in telling people about God, but we do have to strive to lead a good Christian life rooted in Gods word. Check on the internet Sam Shoemakers', "An Apoligia for My Life" (I Stand By The Door) Its not very long, but it kind of makes me think about just how diverse Gods work force is. I pray your journey to understanding what the Spirit will reveal to you is warm and exciting mike2 I think Francis of Assissi said "preach the gospel and if that fails, use words" Begs the question.. whats a preacher?, hm

Using your arguement, we are not only born gay, but we are born murderers, gossips, jealous, hateful and sexually perverted. but; We CHOOSE no to murder We CHOOSE not to gossip We CHOOSE not to be jealous We CHOOSE not to be hateful We CHOOSE not to be sexually perverted AND, yes, we CHOOSE not to be homosexual Verrrry interesting. I think with a little more modification, it may become clearer to the others what it is you are saying. Heres my question: If that were the case, what makes us different, why do some practice murder and some not. Why do some PRACTICE homosexuality while others dont?

What is marriage but a piece of paper? I'm sure that is a statement we have all heard, but, take the time to really consider that statement. How do you describe what makes a marriage as opposed to me, as opposed to a native in an Amazon jungle , as opposed to someone with a different upbringing than me? Especially in view of our modern dilema. Undoubtedly, two Christians would get the piece of paper if for no other reason than appearances and credibility. But I believe the commitment is already made before making it "legal" How is marriage described in the bible? (seriously how is it? ) How does that compare to what you or I or the church of today thinks.? Would a Muslim marriage be invalid because it is not the same as the Christian churchs view?

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Let's turn this around. Can you give me any good reason why a person that doesn't drink alcohol should start? I don't think anyone here is telling you that you NEED to start drinking alcohol. The point is don't try to convince those of us who believe it's okay in moderation that we NEED to stop. I see no reason why a Christian who has no prior or present problem with alchol or drunkenness should NOT have a glass of wine with dinner or a Guiness with some friends. Actually Iryssa, I never did condemn anyone in this thread for having an occassional drink. I have no scripture to support such a position. I just gave a reason why I don't drink and had someone come back and say that my thinking was wrong in that I wasn't trusting in the power of God enough. That's why I asked for a good reason to start drinking. If you want to drink in moderation, more power to you. I just know myself enough to know that if I ever started and got into a place of depression, I would likely start abusing alcohol so I stay away from it. Good for you Butero We that drink though, must always keep in mind WHEN we are drinking, with Whom, and HOW much. We are setting the example and it is our responibility to know when it is apropriate.

I think this is a good example of a misguided pastor and I would probabaly, within myself, question other decisions he might make. I think you have started another thread regarding the authority of pastors this might be food for thought.

Thats the way I look at it too.

Depending on the spiritual maturity of the people being led, it could be a permissive statement. Either way though, it is saying ...Dont get drunk, because..... Which I think is really the issue. 1 Cor.6:12 says we can do anything we want, but it could control us. Unfortunately, a lot of us being led, don't get in to the Word or take the time to understand it. As a result of that, it is easier to be safe than sorry, and thats why some churches have a no drinking rule. That, of course, has scared a lot of people away from the church! 1Timothy3:2 states that the Bishop must be above reproach. Not drinking, of course would lend to his credibility in leading, counseling, and teaching, and would remove the exposure to the temptations that come with drunkeness. I think of 1 Cor 8:10,11 in the context of setting an example. With a higher position comes more responsibilities. One of those responsibilities recquires that if there is a possibility that what you do, could lead someone that is weak, into a situation that they cannot handle, even though you yourself have no problems spiritually or physically with it, you don't do it. I'm also thinking that someone in the position of Bishop in the early church would be far enough along in their faith, that the pleasures of wine should be insignificant compared to the pleasures of realizing a fullfilling Christian life. As man goes , it is percieved that the higher the position of leading, the better the example should be. It is better not to drink at all because of the temptations that come with too much. We dont need wine, we dont have to have it, we chose to have it, and it is a good example of discipline and strength to chose not to have it. I believe that it is also possible that at some point we have to be able to "mingle" with people that need to hear about God and sometimes the only way that we may get in a position where some people will feel comfortable enough with us to listen to us, is if we ARE NOT percieved as a stick in the mud. (Jesus is a great example of this) Maybe a conversation..... over a glass of something? The Bishop was considered as the overseer, probably more in tune with running the church and ensuring proper teaching, the deacons where more like the front line soldiers getting in their and "mingling". I'm sure that there is a defining line that when a deacon became a Bishop, he would have to had to been exhibiting a certain behaviour (same as today) We do have to be aware of 1 Cor. 8:10,11 though As we grow in our faith and God moves us in to new areas of our life we have to be aware of how our actions influence the people that are in our lives and we have to always ask ourselves if it is what Christ would want us to do,maybe that recquires no drinking. Interestingly I compared a number of different bibles on this verse and they do differ from 'not drinking at all', to, 'not being a heavy drinker"

RE: YOUR FIRST POST; I think it was Martin Luther that said. "it doesnt matter if your faith is stronger than mine or mine is stronger than yours, we both have the same treasure in Jesus Christ." I am going to heaven, Christ has given me that. How can an eternity with God get any better than that! Being with God is reward enough! I have often wondered about the "treasures stored up in heaven" but I am afraid that I may be considering those in my selfish, worldly way. As a result of that I have chosen not to fret about it until the Lord decides it is time for me to understand what it means. Right now I am of the opinion that one is not above the other in heaven AND if that were not the case, we would feel total love for each other anyway. Position wouldnt bother us at all. Is it possible we are considering the "treasures" in earthly terms because its the only way we can understand them. Personally, I dont think that heaven would be heaven for eternity if there is a "pecking order" as a result of one soul haveing more "treasures" than another. We shouldnt do good works for any other rewards other than to know we have loved the way Christ wants us to. I really hope that this string gets some far reaching input. RE; YOUR SECOND POST Some things are just too hard to comprehend and we must learn to accept that they simply cannot be understood. EXAMPLE 1 : Where does space end? (man, dont even go there- just accept that it cant) EXAMPLE 2 : How could God always have existed? ( refer to example 1) mike2

Anyone can talk the talk But you gotta walk the walk May I suggest reading 1 Cor, all of it is pertinant. When you start walking the walk as we read in Corinthians, especially with your accepting Jesus, you'll start to feel better about your salvation

Hey Mike2, The difference between humans and animals is that God gave humans a soul. Does that answer your question? When I first posted this, I wondered if anyone would get to that. Now I ask, If we have a soul but animals don't... what is life? Do animals only have the one life, the life of the body? If they dont have a soul, what makes them tick? Who, makes them tick? Are they basically automatons / props on the stage of life? I'm just wandering with my thoughts here, maybe the Spirit is taking me someplace with this

The few times I watched Benny Hinn, I was reminded of bowling.

I don't believe I've ever heard JVI describe himself as a prophet. He is more of a speculator as he makes educated guesses from his bible studies. When I used to watch his show I would consider his findings food for thought more than actual prophesies. I dunno, maybe other people take him more seriously. I'd take ten JVIs over one Benny Hinn. I agree with both of you. And personally, I dont think we need to have specific "predictions." We have to look at the big picture, and JVI is doing a very good job of showing that

Greetings Apo, Balak's will was quite contrary to God's purposes, but HAD TO HAVE His mind changed (his will) by the portent laid before him by the ass. Same with Jonah. They still had the ability to choose, but wisely, they changed their mind. God did NOT force them to correct their behavior. Do you believe that we can get God to change His mind through prayer and supplication? Isn't that what Jesus preached? Remember the neighbor that needed bread late night and hounded his neighbor until he got a response? There are many parables that indicate it is us, particularly as Christians, who ask ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL, that brings his might to bear. I like the following verse: 2 Chron 7:14-15 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place. I still ask for scriptures which support your contention. Blessings, Dad Ernie I guess you're right....God has no power....we are more powerful than God. See where your conclusion leads? God will only act when man chooses/asks Him to (so long as it is His will). Man does not act, therefore God does not act. This means God is limited by man. Regardless, Jonah had no choice, unless you call death a viable choice. He was told to go, he chose not to, God put Him in a giant fish, gave him the choice again, and he "chose" to go. Basically, God would have done the same thing. What do you think His interaction with Israel is? It's a constant, "Fine, you won't choose my way, I'll force you my way." In Hosea He talks of how He "hems in" Israel. This means He leaves them with no choice but to follow Him. With Paul, He told Paul what he would do, not what he could do. With Pharoh, he hardened his heart, without Pharoh choosing to be hardened. I dont know if its relevant or not, but I dont believe God gave Jonah a choice when he was in the belly of the whale. Jonahs life had gotten so bad without God in it (he did choose to keep running from Him) that on his own, he finally spiraled down, almost to hell, at that point he came to the realization that he needed God in his life. By the same token the pharoh chose to ignore, and never accept, Gods signs, and God finally let him be, He quit showing Himself to pharoh, pharohs heart then became hardened. I think out of love for us, God limits Himself, He will not force Himself on us ( He didnt do it at Ninevah, he used Jonah) He lets Himself be known to us, but its totally and completely our freewill to accept Him. Animals interestingly, don't have that choice, and I guess they dont know sin, they have no choice they are Gods (unwillingly?) It may seem like God has no power,but, what if God, in His wisdom has choosen to use that power in such a way, that we come to Him freely, maybe realization, rather than because of , hu-hum- shock and awe

I know that shudder you are talking about. I've felt it from time to time as well,i consider it the Spirit and am learning to recognize it more readily. Jack Van Impe has me bouncing back and forth 1) because i know we are moving towards the end times and 2) when you have all the little things that may be insignificant by themselves brought together it makes it rather compelling. When I start to shudder though, is when I hear his definite reasons about why things are happening (not always, some) and when I hear predictions about how other prophecies will be fulfilled in a certain way. The only thing I really believe about Revelation prophecies, is that they are going to happen in some form, and that we are going to be able to identify them as they occur. What is going to happen when it gets really bad is not going to matter to me other than I will feel horrible to know that people are suffering. So what is Jack Van Impe to me. He is a messenger, he is gathering all the info on the happenings in the world in one place for all to see. This has brought me to the question What is the book of revelation to me, if I will be gone in the rapture I look at the revealing of the book of Revelation as we see it unfolding, reported to us through people such as J. van Impe, and Worthy News to name a few, I look at that, as a way of showing non believers the truth about Jesus. If we look at what is happening in the world, and relate that to what we read in the bible - in Revelation-, to a non believer, we give the Bible credibility. If we give Revelation credibility, we can show Gods relationship with us in the Old Testament, its prophecies and how they relate to God coming to us as Jesus, we can show them a way out of this mess, the love of Jesus, the love for one another, salvation. It may be the last opportunity, the last witness, to a dis-interested world, especially when the church is gone. I dont agree with some of the liberties Jack Van Impe takes, but I think that in a different way, he is leading people to God Revelation is ignored by a lot of people, but i believe that it can be very valuable in catching SOME non believers interest To hear is to understand I think of Rev 1:3

Riiiiight, easy to say but I can guarantee that if a guy broke into your house in the middle of the night and put a gun to your head you'd be afraid of death. Unless of course you have nothing to live for. Even if YOU aren't afraid of death (highly unlikely) YOU don't speak for EVERYONE. Actually you are dead wrong (no pun intended) because I would love to have proof of god and I'd be right there on my knees paying homage. This is a common mistake religious people make. Who wouldn't want to believe that there is a god who loves me and has a happy place to go for all eternity. All it takes is proof! No one's accomplished that task yet in the entire history of the world. I'm not trying to disprove god because it's not up to me to prove or disprove god. If you want me to believe then YOU must prove god exists and if god wants me to believe all it takes is proof. TADA!! easily understood don't you think? If I want to prove to you that bigfoot exists should I expect you to believe it just because I say it exists or do you require a bit more proof? Why do atheists have to be afraid of death? Well, they don't have to be but I sure am. I don't want to die, I want to live forever!! That's a pretty far reaching statement, that atheists complain of life so much that we might as well hate living... I don't complain about life, life is great and I love living. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas, from other christians? Try asking an atheist next time you want to know something about atheists. As a Christian I am not afraid of death. If someone came into my house and put a gun to my head, yep. I'd be afraid of the PROCESS of death this could be an interesting topic....... the 2 deaths we face and their process

man, I think you have to keep in mind AK's original post , that we as Christians can prove Gods existance. With that we have to assume that there is already a belief in God. How does one Christian prove Gods existance to another Christian, not to an atheist