SDAinFLA

While I don't all together agree with evertying Other One stated...there may be something to it. While, I'm not calling this a doctrine...I was doing a study on Babylon and I gave this teaching some credence. If you notice, the Bible gives us a 3-way split on the agencies that will work against Christ in the last days: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Rev 16:13 If we take these 3 components as symbols we could say... The Dragon = Devil (Rev 12:9) The Beast = Catholicism (Rev 13:1) False Prophet = False Christianity (Rev 13:11-12) London = Headquarters of spiritualism and devil worship (According to John Todd) Vatican = Headquaters of Catholicsm Washington DC = Capital of America which is the head quarters of Christianity Again, not saying this is definite, but Other One may be on to something here. "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." Rev 16:13

The 4th Day Why do you say three was "something" there to divide the day from the night? I don't see anything. God divided the light from the darkness, but can't God stand light and darkness side by side? Can't he make that light and darkness shine upon the earth as he sees fit without there being a "source" of light? A very similar scenario we have with the waters. The Bible says "And God made the firmament, and divided the waters..." Gen 1:7 When God divided the light...there was nothing mentioned of God creating anything to divide it...which leads me to believe it was simply divided without a sun or moon.

It's been a great discussion with you BBB. I appreciate the lively discussion. Take care.

A few points: 1. The Bible says "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." Genesis 1:14 Even if prior to this "day" the days were not 24 hour periods...they were 24 hour periods after God created the lights in the firmament. Clearly the division of the day and night by the lights in the firmament should be considered the same time frame as the division takes today. (Unless we find a reason to believe God modified the rotational times of the sun and moon after creation week.) 2. One of the commandments God gave Israel was "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy...For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8,11 If 6 days were 6 seasons, then God gave the Jews the wrong time frames to work and to rest. However, the days that Israel observed were literal 24 hour time periods....which reflected creation week. The reason I related this to evolution is because it is evolution that dates the creation of earth for thousands of years due to their carbon dating methods. It seems Christians have come up with a way to explain their theory by coming up with a creation model that can be in agreement with science.

The earthly high priest did not review any books (as far as I know). However, each person did come up in review before God on this day. "And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people." Lev 23:28-30 So while the high priest did not open a book, God did review each believer. This is correct. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. However, the writer of Hebrews is clearly talking about the heavenly sanctuary and not our earthly body's. Notice what Hebrews says - "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24 So....my question is according to Hebrews 9:24, is "heaven itself" us? Or is heaven itself....heaven itself?

You have not been out of line. Thanks for the apology, but not necessary. My position is that the mediation and the redemptive work go hand in hand. Why is Christ mediating? What is there to mediate? Can we be saved without it? Usually mediation happens because two parties don't agree. If God and I don't agree and Christ has to step in to mediate AFTER his death...what does that tell us? The work of mediation is necessary for my salvation. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15 Well, if your question is...does Christ have to look at the book to determine who is saved...the answer is No. But clearly God looks at his books which are kept for our benefit and the angels benefit. Again, taking the Bible for what it says - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10 Of course Jesus knows, but I'm taking the Bible for what it says, and it tells me that for the judgment, there will be some books. If you ask any questions I will answer them, but if you provide only statements, I will end the debate here. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for your informative views. I don't agree with everything you stated but I can respect it. Look forward to another debate with you soon. God Bless Yes. I believe the atonement for sins was complete at the cross but I do not believe atonement for the sinner has been completed. In other words, Christ sacrifice, satisfied the requirement for sin. There is no need for another sacrifice as his was perfect.However, the believer still must accept Jesus Christ and allow that atonement that has already taken place to be applied to his life. Again, to remain consistent with my position. I can refer to the earthly sanctuary ONLY when the Bible does. In other words...I cannot apply part of the earthly sanctuary service to the heavely sanctuary service until the Bible gives me warrant to do so through scripture. Now, speaking of "Atonement". The earthly sanctuary service had a "Day of Atonement". The day of atonement only happened once a year: And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year...Lev 16:34 Now, notice it said ONCE A YEAR. This was the day of the year that the High Priest went into God's presence...the day of atonement. Now look at what Hebrews mentions: But into the second (Most Holy Place) went the high priest alone once every year,(Day of Atonement) not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing. Heb 9:7-8 So you understand...I'm not picking and choosing what components of the earthly sanctuary I'm applying...I'm only taking what the Bible is giving me. And clearly it's telling me that Day of Atonement has an anti-typical application. And this is what happened once a year in the typical service: And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. Lev 16:34 A couple of points/questions 1. So Jesus is cleaning sin? What does cleaned sin look like? 2. Also, if the temple is me...doesn't that makes me the anti-type. The sanctuary service typified us? 3. If the sanctuary is me...then what did John see? And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 11:19 BBB, take the Bible at it's Word (no pun intended)...if the Bible says there's a temple in heaven, then believe it is that.

Example...Model...Ok...the name of the comparison doesn't concern me as much as our understanding of the comparision. I also use the word Example too. Not exactly...the sanctuary not only forshadowed the coming of Christ, but it forshadowed what Christ would do when he came. This is very important. The earthly sanctuary service told us that when the Messiah would show up he would die for our sins. So the sanctuary showed us the work of Christ. This is the point that I've been trying to make. The sanctuary is ALL about Christ. I am not separating Christ from the sanctuary as you seem to believe. The sanctuary let's us know we needed the sacrificial lamb but we also need the High Priest. Both are important to our salvation and both are Christ alone. Again, I see your point...but I am not separating Christ from his work. If the sanctuary pointed to Christ in his death...then it also points to him after his death which is the ministration of the High Priest. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11 If the good things to come were just Christ...then this scripture would read... "But Christ being come a High Priest of 'Christ'...." Wouldn't you agree that the ministration of Christ is clearly being pointed out by the writer of Hebrews? We are definitely chasing our tails here! Hahah! I asked you what's being cleansed...and you turn around and ask me what's it being cleansed of! Lol!!! That's my point. If the heavenly sanctuary needs to be purified (Heb 9:23), what else can it be purified from? SIN. I thought you understood my position on this. What I'm asking you is...if you disagree that sin needs to be purified from the sanctuary in heaven...then I'm asking you for your explanation of what needs to be purified. Huh? Maybe I'm missing something. I clearly stated that the model is not a component-for-component example. (There's not a literal lamb in heaven...there's no real blood in the sanctuary). I'm not sure why you keep refuting a point that I am not trying to make. The Bible is plain. it tells us how to interpret the sanctuary service. It let's us know what's not a component-for-component example. Let me show you... The Bible tells us that there's not a literal lamb "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29 (Well, this tells me that it's not a literal lamb in heaven) The High Priest had to confess his sins, but the Bible tells us that our heavenly High Priest never sinned For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15 I hope it doesn't appear that I am being devisive here...but I considered your point irrelevant to the discussion. I agree that he's a High Priest of a living a superior order...this, to me, is obvious. He is not from the tribe of Levi like Aaron and all the other High Priest, but he doesn't have to be. He was of the Melchisedec order. My premise is not that Christ order is not superior or his ministry not more excellent. I'm just not sure how it negates my point. You're correct. There is only one judgment. You are talking about the exective judgment. I am talking about the reviewing of the names...this is a judgment too. When Jesus comes back, he will EXECUTE the sentence of judgment...but he will have come to the conculsion of saved and lost prior to his return. This is the judgment that happens in heaven prior to Christ return...so when he comes, the recipients of his reward will have already been determined And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12 The determination of who is saved happens in heaven...then Christ comes to execute that judgment when he comes back. ...And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 15-16 If you are asking me for a scripture that says "Christ is performing a judgment in heaven right now" then we can close this debate, because that scripture doesn't exist. But oftentimes in scripture we don't have a "thou shalt not" for everything. In order to prove the on going judgment, I am taking the work of the High Priest on the typical day of atonement and taking the Bible at it's Word that there's another High Priest that entered the sanctuary and that it was cleansed. If you study the typical Day of Atonement, you will discover it was a day of judgment too. Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD...For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. Lev 23:27,29 There is a cut off before Christ comes back too! He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11 The scripture that I have already given you for the judgment was Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:..." You simply don't agree because you believe the Gospel is still being preached after Christ comes back.

I'm not sure what type of "triber" I am but my thoughts are a little different. I actually believe that the only person that will be here is the devil (and probably his angels too). The non believers will die at the return of Christ The believers will be raptured when Christ comes back and he will take them to heaven for 1000 years So the first resurrection is only for the righteous dead. The second resurrection is only for the wicked dead.

Hi BBB, I am back in town. Thanks for your patience. I try not to debate/discuss for long periods. So I'm thinking, we can maybe go two more rounds, and you can take the last word on this discussion (a disccusion which I am greatly enjoying.) So we don't loose track of the disucssion, My position in regards to the OP is that I believe Christ has not come back yet due to a work of judgment (in the sanctuary) that must happen prior to his return. (There may be other factors like the gospel being preached...etc that I have not mentioned for the sake of this discussion only) Let's continue... Now remember, my question was not is the earthly sanctuary a literal model of the heavenly sanctuary. I asked was it a model. Think of it like a model airplane...of course a model airplane cannot fly like a real one...but there are major aspects of a model airplane that looks just like a real airplane. This is the relation of the typical sanctuary and the anti-typical sanctuary. For example... Both the earthly and heavenly sanctuarys have an ark The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle. Exodus 31:7 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament...: Rev 11:19 Both the earthly and heavenly sanctuarys had a golden altars And he put the golden altar in the tent of the congregation before the vail: Exodus 40:26 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8:3 Both sanctuarys had covering cherubs And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. Exodus 25:20 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth...Ezekiel 28:14 (Lucifer was one of the cherubs that covered the ark) BBB, If you think I am magnifying the shadow over the substance...than I have not done a good job making my position clear. My point is that the shadow gives us understanding of what the substance is. So we're not chasing our tales here...my premise is not confessed or unconfessed sins. My premise is that the earthy sanctuary was cleansed once a year on the Day of Atonement. This Day of Atonement was also anti-typical in nature thus the writer of Hebrews is making it known that there is a heavenly Day of Atonement. The earthly sanctuary needed cleansing from the uncleaness of Israel And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. Lev 16:19 The heavenly sanctuary will also be cleansed It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hebrews 9:23 A very simple question is why would the heavenly sanctuary need to be cleansed just like the earthly?

I'll be riding on a train for the next few hours so I don't have much ability to to research for a few days...but you can provide me with some reading material by answering a few questions: Om instead of posting me a link to what you said i misquoted you (which I am not finding)...do you think you can just re-post your understanding of Rev 14? I'm not trying to be funny but it makes more sense to just tellme what you said and not make me search for it. Please put what I misquoted and then what the correct statement is so I can figure out where I messed up. 2. Ok so answer these questions pls: 1. Was the earthly santuary a model of the heavenly sanctuary? 2. Is Jesus a high Priest today? 3. What did the High Priest do after the sacrifice during the earthly sanctuary service? 4. What duty (if any) does Jesus role as our High Priest means he is performing?

Yea....I don't think God has two methods for the forgiveness of sin. So if repentance is only for the Jews, then what was Christ talking about here? "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47 Huh? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I copied the statement from your 3:40 pm post on yesterday. Here it is in it's full: "i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological. but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming." I understand that verses 1-5 are talking about the people of God post second coming, but verses 6 says an angel comes to preach the everlasting gospel. Why is the gospel being preached after the second coming? Again, the gospel is for these days, not post second coming...this is the judgment that is happening right now. But the very next scripture says - As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Dan 7:12 If this is the executive judgment, why are the beasts lives prolonged for a season? Now, if Christ was our sacrifice (which I believe). Why is he now called our high priest? "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast ourprofession." Hebrews 4:14 Does the High Priest not serve a role in the sanctuary service? Obviously Christ is the sacrifice and the High Priest. But if you claim that Christ is not performing any duties in heaven...why is called the High Priest still? This is not an empty title. We see in the Old Testament Sanctuary that AFTER the sacrifice, the High Priest went into the sanctuary with blood. "Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:" Hebrews 9:6-7 But the Bible says this entrance into the sanctuary was not the real entrance...it was only a model of the true heavenly High Priest entering the sanctuary The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not YET made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8 So then did Christ enter the sanctuary just like the High Priest in the earthly did? Yes "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 912 Now, there was a cleansing of the Old Testament Sanctuary "And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel." Lev 16:19 Well, then if the Old Testament Sanctuary was cleansed in the typical service, then what about the anti typical? "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23 Why would it be necessary that heavenly things are purified? This is the work of the High Priest.

While I respect your position, but I disagree. Repentance is part of the removal of our sin. The Bible is clear on this. Acts 2:38 says - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Also, the Bible says - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Acts 3:19 Obvious? I'm not so sure. The messages of the 3 angels of Revelation 14 is a message for today. The everlasting gospel no longer needs to be preached to a world of people at the second coming. They're fates are already sealed. Also, later on in that chapter it says - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14:13...this is not language that tells me that the world has ended and Christ has returned, these are message for the last days. The Bible says - "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14. If your interpretation of Revelation 14 is correct, it sounds like the end comes, and then the gospel is preached. If there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary, then what is happening in Daniels vision? "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

Ok...so from your original qu Well, it's obvious nothing impedes Christ return, so I hope I am not giving off that impression. I was actually trying to keep my posts simple however, you deserve a more indepth explanation. My basis of the judgment comes from the Jewish sanctuary service. In the typical sanctuary service, the high priest had work to perform after the sacrifice was completed. I believe you already understand the sanctuary service performed by the Jews was model of the heavenly sanctuary. Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle... Hebrews 8:5 In the typical sanctuary, the blood from the sacrifice was carried into the sanctuary after the sacrifice was made But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: Heb 9:7 The judgment involves a work of cleansing in the earthly sanctuary For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. Lev 16:30 This same work happens in the heavenly sanctuary For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Heb 9:24 Not that this judgment impedes Christ, but it follows the pattern of the earthly sanctuary. The high priest still had a work to perform after the sacrifice, which Christ still is performing a work in us after his sacrifice. This is the judgment, removing our sins when we repent.

this sounds extra-biblical. why would you believe this? what work? what judgement? chapter and verse? Hi. I'm looking at 1Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Also I am looking at Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Hi SDA in context, we should start at verse 12 and go beyond 17. 1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. this speaks of the persecution every Christian experiences as a pilgrim on this earth. we should rejoice in our suffering, and not be ashamed of it. the judgement Peter spoke of is discipline, which is an ongoing process as we are conformed to the image of Christ, in comparison to the utter destructive judgement of the wicked. it's called sanctification. also, only the flesh is brought under condemnation of the law. there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1) therefore, our judgement, our trial, and our execution was finished when our flesh was crucified at the cross with Jesus. in light of the context, i don't see what you mean by Christ finishing judgment as a prerequisite to His returning for the Church. finishing what judgement? finishing who's judgement? ------ Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. six verses prior to this, we clearly see the Lamb of God and His Bride after the 1st resurrection, so this doesn't help your argument. Isn't Peter 4:17 still talking about judgment? It reveals itself in our world as the plight of the Christian, and God conforming us to his image. Is God not doing this? If he is then this is what's taking place....God's judgment. I'm not sure how we disagree. I'm not sure where you are going with my Revelation 14:7 reference. The OP's question was how come Christ has not come yet. My point is that there is judgment going on now. Whether the Lamb of God and his Bride are shown 6 verses earlier...what point are you making? Obviously, Revelation is not read like a novel where what happens in vs. 1 is always the beginning and the last vs of the chapter is the end. Revelation skips around and repeats itself. So if the lamb is shown with the bride, are you suggesting that Rev 14:7 is post second coming? I am really just trying to figure out your points. Thanks!

this sounds extra-biblical. why would you believe this? what work? what judgement? chapter and verse? Hi. I'm looking at 1Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Also I am looking at Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."