unworthyservant

Daniel I'm with you all the way and I, too have been concerned by what I call "Political Christianity" for some time but I just can't lay all the blame on the state. I would only add one little addition to your closing line "...allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state and internal distractions.

Dennis, I don't mean to say that all eschatology discussion is counterproductive, only that having to take such a definitive stand on a specific issue such as defining how or when the 2 beasts in Revelation will appear leads to much discussion on those issues and thus by proxy limits discussion on issues more relevant to our lives or our Faith. As you say, it's uncanny, all of the views on the issue, so I rest my case. The very word hermeneutics' implies interpretation and I feel that interpretation is oft times a arduous process so prefer to channel that energy to interpreting things that are more relevant to my daily walk with God or an unfulfilled prophecy that may more directly affect it.

Good stuff bcbsr. I'm glad to see a real discussion on the teachings of Christ. So, while I believe that you covered it pretty well and so won't belabor the initial point at this time, I'm just curious as to the origins of the little poem.

You would think so but my understanding from good source is that it's not planned but real.

Good point and analogy! It's uncanny how translation issues form so many of our opinions. So, with that said, I have to question why it should even be an issue. Why can't folks just agree to disagree or better yet not take such definitive sides on such an issue. Definitive views on such subjects are the cause of much controversy and while some things require such a definitive stand this isn't one, since it's something that will only be evident when it happens. Until then wouldn't our time be better spent on doing the things we can agree on like spreading the Gospel and helping those in need instead of worrying about who is right and wrong about the Revelation of John. And it's not just this issue. I've been slowly but surely reading a series of topics started some years ago by @George concerning the Rapture theories (and I'll be starting a new one on that soon). Together they have over 200,000 views and 3000 replies and I wonder how few views were changed through all that. It is also of note that the topics on the teachings of Christ that I have seen don't have nearly so much activity. What does that say about our priorities? There are just some things that have so little relevance to our daily walk with God that I don't even take a definitive stand on them and this is a classic example of such an issue. I just feel that arguing such issues is not only needlessly rocking the boat but when involved in such discussions sometimes we're wasting good rowing time. "The harvest is great and the laborers few" so why don't we all just work on the harvest at hand instead of discussing next years crop while the current one rots in the field? Thanks again and God Bless

I'm sure many remember as a child singing "This Little Light of Mine", I'm gonna let it shine. It's a classic and even as adults we'd be well served to remember that the best thing we can do is to let our light shine right where we are. And it'll shine even brighter if we could only hold it up with the faith of a child. Sometimes we tend to make a big deal of what God actually wants or requires of us but at the heart of the matter is a simple truth that we learned as children. It's simply that He wants His children to let His love shine through their lives in their own corner of the world. And when we let our lights shine through our daily lives then others can see God's love in action. There's so many theories on Evangelism in these days of instant gratification media that it's easy to forget that the best way to reach people is still letting our lights shine brightly to everyone everyday. And when you feel that you can't make a difference by yourself, just remember, all the darkness in the universe can't extinguish the light of one single lamp.

I hadn't even thought about it so I just had mine while reading this thread.

I make a killer spam gravy. (and it doesn't take much Spam) You can get a half dozen batches of gravy for four out of one can! Spam gravy on toast, my version of SOS!

I don't react Praise God very often on here (as I save that for special times) but you've hit on something I've been very vocal on for years. I didn't even have to visit the link, I know it's worse than bad and getting more so every day. It's not just Netflix if you ask me, they're just one of the biggest and most visible. It's the entire secular entertainment that's getting worse by the day and Netflix is just a leader. But thanks for bringing this abomination to light again. Maybe you'll convince someone to stop giving their money to them to support their sinful content!

I'm sure everyone has heard the phrase "There's nothing free but Salvation" and most everyone would say that Salvation is indeed "free", but is it really? It's true that Salvation is indeed free for you and me but that is only because "Jesus Paid it All". You see for Salvation to be free for you and me, Christ had to pay the ultimate price so that it could be. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice there wouldn't be Salvation at any price. So, the next time you think about the free gift of salvation, take a minute to remember why it's free and say a prayer of thanks to the One who made it so.

Another good analysis. I've read it but I don't remember if I mentioned "bread for the coming day" or "Bread for tomorrow" but I was more touching on a focus on the actual literal meaning of the word "epiousia" than anything. But more good commentary.

I just checked it out it's not only cool but the site looks very promising. I saved it and will use it. There's also a place online called Bible Researcher that I oft access. It's actually different texts from different modern authors who quote old texts which you then have to research on your own and while it doesn't have cool old stuff like that there are interesting articles(with varying views which makes me believe it's legit). The online old texts like that one are the things that in my online days we could only read about and never see for real! Ain't technology great? Just makes one appreciate the writers in antiquity even more.

I did this research many years ago when online databases were free and most of my sources at that time were academic institutions (Cambridge has a wealth of texts) who at that time hosted their databases online. I have found more recently that these institutions are joining these new giant databases and search engines such as WordPress which are not very user friendly unless you know the new library numbering system (I guess the . I usually try and find the oldest reliable sources. I apologize but while I did look up the words again, most of my post was from my own old notes. I was over this entire dilemma years ago and just thought it an interesting tidbit that after all the scholarly discussion over the years still no one has a good definition for the actual word. As for the NA (or what we Baptists know as Novum Testamentum Graece) it is one of the better known, preserved and respected of the texts of the 19th century and is actually taken from three older commentaries. I also at times refer to the original Westcott & Hort or the Textus Receptus but I don't believe that either of them have anything other than text similar to the NTG. The articles on which I based my text on were research done in more modern times which simply quoted the old texts and from my memory when I did check their accuracy I found very little either way, so couldn't comment on that. I had always been of the belief that those texts were the closest to accurate (and in most cases they do turn out to be) but once when researching the Lord's Prayer came across the things that I mentioned in my post. I'm always in awe at the way the writers in antiquity were able to translate and comment on things with such accuracy despite the lack of modern technology.

BTW, please note you must have a valid library card from a participating library to even get on the search engines that I mentioned.

Sorry, I don't have any in particular but over the years I have found good info from places like the Cambridge University library but I believe that like most higher learning institutions these days they now allow access to online resources and databases to students and faculty. They may as some do offer a paid subscription for a certain period or amount of searches. I'm told this is due to the fact that the people like WordPress, et. al. are attempting to compile outside databases that link to these institutions and the Universities now get a license for only a certain number of hits themselves and for economic reasons only get enough to allow the students and faculty. You might try WordPress or Novelist (there's one other competitor whose name escapes me) but from my experience as of now searching isn't easy as you must have EXACT search terms or it will give you either nothing or crazy results. This is the same for American institutions, even the Ivy League schools (which also have expansive databases) allow very little public web access to the Library records and databases. There are sites such as privately run Bible translation sites and Biblical history sites but as I said earlier, always vet them well because as the old saying goes "Figures never lie but beware of liars who figure". You never know who is running the sites and if they don't give good references for their conclusions I shy away. I usually find that if I want to find a specific fact I can usually search long enough to get to the bottom of it but general info is a little harder due to the fact of how search engines work and to the fact that there's so many unreliable sources on the web these days. Good luck and God Bless

yeah, I said info not necessarily accurate. I agree that one must work harder to determine if the info is accurate

You are correct that more modern edited versions are more identical. I'm referring to the oldest texts where the controversy started. From about the 4th or 5th century on they have settled on the versions you mention and there's really not as much difference. The controversy was begun as they tried to figure this out from what I understand. That's the heart of the question, the meaning of the actual word, not the phrase. I agree that the phrase "Daily bread" is a fine translation but I just like to research where phrases that seem literal in English come from and how their translation affects whether what we read is literal definition or best guess as to the intended meaning and then compare. You also make a good point that where I referred to the allusion of a "made up" word and neglected to mention the reason that would be. You said it much more clearly when you say "someone in the early church coined a Greek work to translate an Aramaic word" because as much as I talked about the Greek, we must remember that the 1st translation which was from Aramaic and that was just problematic if not more so for those writers. You are correct about the Latin Vulgate and the word daily which as I said I'm personally good with but the entire post was more about literal meaning. I do like the idea of necessary, essential, or sufficient better and is why I like St. John Chrysostom's thoughts that it's just asking for sustenance or essential actual "bread" or food and not for a feast. I'm bad about always using literal meanings when possible.

I agree and as I stated I have no qualms about the conundrum as the Gospel of Luke does say "bread" in plain language so I have no question about the translation accuracy, I just thought it a good mystery. (that should have no bearing on anyone's faith)

Wow, I don't even know what happened but I just did the "quote" thing and I'm guessing somehow I did something that attributed it to the wrong person? Not sure what and not even sure how to know who I'm quoting other than the person whose profile shows.

You hit that on the head. Even during the first century there was much flux especially during the reign of Nero and subsequently right after.