RealPresence

Those are good - but you forgot one that MANY on this forum are guilty of: "Thou shalt not LIE." Too many people around here simply resort to lying instead of doing a little research to find out that the things they think they know about Christ's Church are simply not true.

I don't know where you get your "well known" facts but - Jesus spoke pf the destruction of the Temple in the Gospels (Matt. 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6). It also strikes me as interesting when Protestants reject Tradition when they want to disagree with Catholics - yet they USE it when it suits them. It is NOT a "well known" fact that ALL of the Apostles except for John were dead by AD 69. For instance - can YOU tell me when Andrew or Thomas or Jude died and HOW?? We rely on Tradition for these answers - NOT Scripture . . .

And that's where you're dead wrong. I have stated repeatedly that simply "disagreeing" with Catholic teaching doesn't bother me one bit. Yhat's your business. It's when people around here LIE and tell all manner of vile falsehoods and try to pass them off as "fact". That is not only unfair - it is a sin to bear false witness, in case you forgot. The final act of cowardice is when I expose you guys for it and you go running to the Mods to report me for being "rude". Do your homework and fight your own battles. There is nothing more "rude" than lying . . .

Face it - you don't "feel compelled" to answer the questions because you can't. NONE of you have been able to answer what should be very simple. ALL of you should know where you got your Bible. It didn't just fall out of the sky one day and land on Martin Luther's head. If you don't know - you had better find out. Your very soul is at stake . . .

I was simply showing that the Canon of Scripture was compiled and declared by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the holy spirit (John 16:12-15). this is a historical fact that cannot be denied. My questions to Protestants thus far on this forum has been: Where the the 66 Book Protestant Canon come from if NOT from the Catholic Church original 72 Book Canon? WHO declared it? WHO had the authority to do so? So far - nobody has been able to answer this on FOUR threads now. Two of the threads have been closed and I have been thrown off of two other threads and have been given two warning points. Instead of doing a little research and answering the question - the cowardly response has been to simply report me to the Mods to have me thrown off. As a matter of fact - entire threads have been closed because of this question. This speaks VOLUMES to the accepted ignorance of many on this forum. This should shake every Protestant on this forum to their very foundation. If you don't know WHERE you go t your Bible - how can you possible know that it is your SOLE rule of faith? PS - I already know that my days on this forum are numbered because of the cowardice of many who would rather have me banned than answer these questions. they also want to continue their little uninterrupted anti-Catholic party that was going on before I arrived.

No - this doesn't answer the question. you're simply dancing around the issue again. Tell me - in your own words and not by links - WHERE the Protestant Canon of Scripture came from if it was NOT from the Catholic Church. WHEN was it declared? WHO declared it? WHO had the Authority to do so?

Thank you for responding. However, this does not tell us where you got your Canon of Scripture. It is also extremely inaccurate. Coming from Matt Slick and CARM.org, I'm not surprised. First of all - the Jewish canon of Scripture during the life of Jesus was an open Canon. They didn't close the canon until long after He ascended into Heaven and after the destruction of the Temple because of the influence it was having on Hellenized Jews - that isGreek-influenced Jews. they blamed these books for causing many to convert to Christianity. As a matter of fact, in the NT, we see over 150 direct references and allusions to the Deuterocanonical Books that were thrown outby this non-authoritative POST-Christ, POST-Temple rabbinical school. As to the Catholic Church having "not always" accepted these Books until the Council of Trent - that is a 100% manufacturedLIE. During a period of 37 years at the turn of the 5th century, the Canon of Scripture was formally declared and confirmed FIVE times. It is the same canon of Scripture that was around during the Reformation and that is STILL in use today by the Catholic Church. - The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified. - It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393). - At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document. - 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon. - 14 years later, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century - the Canon was formally CLOSED. The Deuterocanonical books had ALWAYS been part of the Christian Canon. It was during the Reformation and subsequent periods that Protestant men had problems with the canon and decided that some of the books were uninspired. As I stated earlier, Luther wanted to remove several books including Hebrews, James, Jude andRevelation. Calvin and Zwingli did not believe Revelation to be inspired and wanted to remove it as well. Had it not been for the pleading of their contemporaries - YOUR Bible would be a lot smaller. ALL of what I just stated can be proven by history. Matt Slick's version cannot. Now - I will ask again: WHERE did the Protestant Canon of Scripture come from - if NOT from the Canon declared by the Catholic church in the 4th century? PS - I fully expect this thread to be closed like the last one was - or somebody to report me to the Mods and have me banned from the thread.

NONSENSE. Do you think that God started dropping Bible on people's heads during the 16th century?? Is that what you really believe?? I have asked the following question on THREE threads now and NOBODY has been able to answer it. As a matter of fact - on one of the threads, the original poster asked the Moderators to close the thread because they didn't want to deal with the question that I kept asking. Here goes: Where did you Protestants get your canon of Scripture? When you can answer this question honestly - we can have a productive dialog. Until then - you simply don't know what you're talking about . . .

Got a long answer for that?

2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you were taught, EITHER by an oral statement - OR by a letter of ours. Game. Set. MATCH.

And NOWHERE does it say that the Scriptures are our SOLE authority. However, the following passages say that the CHURCH has Supreme Authority on earth: Matt 16:18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 18:15-18 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU (The Church) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU (The Church) loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to YOU (The Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects YOU (The Church) rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." John 20:21-23 “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send YOU (The Church).” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU (The Church) forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU (The Church) retain are retained.”

This is nothing more than yet another anti-Catholic thread disguised as a "history lesson." For starters the terms "Christian Canon" vs. "Catholic Canon" are based in ignorance. Catholics were the very FIRST Christians. Protestant Christians came about 1500 years later. A more correct terminology would be the "Protestant Canon" vs. "Catholic Canon." Protestants got their Canon of Scripture from the Catholic Church who declared it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the 4th century. After deleting 7 Books, they also deleted portions of Daniel and Esther. The Protestant Fathers ALSO debated the deletion of Books such as James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation. Had it not been for the fact that some Protestant Fathers fought against this - YOUR Bible woul;d have been a LOT smaller. the ONLY suthority the Protestants had for deleting the 7 Books from the OT - Books that Jesus and the NT writers studied from - was a POST Christ, POST Temple Rabbinical school. The books were deleted AFTER Jesus ascended and AFTER the destruction of the Temple because of the influence they were having on the conversion of the Diaspora (Dispersed Jews). We Catholics adhere to othe SAME Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and referenced over 150 times in the NT. You Protestants, on the other hand, accepted the POST Christ, POST Temple Rabbinical Canon that was edited without proper authority. Them's the facts . . . PS - If you had done your homework properly, you would have mentioned the fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls contained the 7 Books that you guys deleted . . .

And I'm sorry that you ignored it . . .

And I see you completely ignored my previous post regarding Invincible Ignorance. That's why you're in the confused mess that you are. Listen - no matter what your friends tell you - ignorance is NOT bliss . . .

And that's where YOUR abject ignorance come into play . . . The Pope is merely expounding on the teaching of Invincible Ignorance. Jesus told the Pharisees: John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. The Catholic teaching on Invincible Ignorance is as follows - and is NOT a guarantee for anybody. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too MAY achieve eternal salvation.337