Diaste

The idea is that something will occur to lead down the path to the beginning, of the beginning, of the end of the age, down the path from which there is no return. There should be something that will be the cause leading to the necessary events as signs we can see, showing us we are approaching the end of the age. Something like this Israel/Iran thing could be one. But now I don't know because it appears as though it's done. But that could be just appearances. Something that I see is the idea of some entity with power and authority guaranteeing safety for Israel while the Temple is rebuilt. I hear rumors a large sector of the Arab/Muslim world is not opposed to a rebuilt Temple. But of course the radicals would see a Jewish Temple as a grave insult to Allah and try to stop it. Israel would need a protector, someone who has the power to stop attacks. Hmmm....

You'll know when you see the Temple construction commence. We'll know before that, but there will be no doubt when the Temple stands again.

I'm never able to place the land of Magog any further north than Turkey, maybe to the Caucasus. If I'm being generous, it's possible Magog settled the area between the seas. I don't find Gog as land mass, and I don't know for sure that Magog is limited to any particular area. In Rev 20, "Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog" Here, Gog of the land of Magog is the whole earth and the inhabitants that can be deceived to fight against Holy Jerusalem. So while 'scholars' will place Magog in any place, and every place, from Pacific coast of China to the North Sea and all of Europe, I don't one definitive location or people group. It appears more that Magog is the army of Satan from across the breadth of the earth, Gog it's leader and chief prince.

Israel won't quit. The US is helping. Several countries have pledged to aid Iran. Iran threatens the Strait of Hormuz. The world likely won't allow that. There is a threat to attack shipping in the Gulf. That would be a mistake. Would 5 or 6 countries allied against Israel give rise to Israel's protector? Could we be seeing the onset of the beginning of the end? For the pretrib crowd: No, the beast isn't coming from Europe or Rome or anywhere else but the Mideast.

Initially, I don't see anywhere a time line for a bema judgement prior to the sheep and goats. And it seems the 2 Cor 5:10 verse is for 'all', no distinction made between believers and non believers, and as the verse says, " that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad." Now, there is no standard in 2 Cor 5:10 about just what that 'good or bad' might be. However, in Mat 25:35-43 we do see a clear standard, good is loving people in need, bad is not loving people in need. The bema judgement can't be placed at any particular time prior to sheep and goats as no evidence exists in scripture to establish the, When? A lot has been made up about the 2 Cor 5:10 bema seat judgement as if it's some distinctly special hearing exclusively for Christians. Bema is just another name for a throne or a raised platform. Further, How does one know there was an earlier hearing for only believers when it's obvious there are believers at the sheep and goats judgement? I would dare to speculate only believers are invited thusly: "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." That is quite a profound declaration, and also the fulfillment of the great promise of God, to inherit the kingdom. Isn't that the promise to which believers cling so tightly? And finally, this local brother is clearly pretrib, given the evidence. The only people taken in the gathering at the 2nd coming are those who passed through GT and none other. This negates some special judgement for 'believers'. There is no mention of of the devil and other entity judgement in Rev 20 at the GWT. Death and hades and just another way to say resurrection from the grave. Thantos is just dead, hades, or hell, is another way to say 'grave'. Also, because a thing isn't mentioned doesn't mean nonexistence. In Matt 25:31 -46 we don't see a resurrection of the dead. Does that mean there was no resurrection of the dead for the sheep and goats judgement? Unequivocally, NO. It means the text is silent about that aspect and we should take part in that fine example and not speculate. Not really. There is no definitive evidence of when the sheep and goats judgement occurs. The only clue we have is "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne." When? Christ will sit in that throne for 1000 years. "He will sit on His glorious throne." is for the duration of His rule. Matt 25:31 doesn't even state when He first sits on His glorious throne, just that it's inevitable, it will happen. It's a declaration of a condition that will exist, not a timeline. Exceedingly great mercy! What we see are different aspects of the same judgement. It's two or three witnesses of this event which establishes truth and clears the water. At the gathering the ones taken up are the 5th seal martyrs and the living who survived GT, everyone else waits till the 1000 years have passed and are resurrected at the GWT judgement.

With so many voices pulling this way and that way we should be more concerned with hearing the voice of the true Shepherd. I will look to what He said about the beginning of the end of the age.

I understand. Over the last 45 years or so it's been quite the learning experience delving into Revelation as compared to the Gospels and Epistles. I see lots of straight forward, linear, histories and arguments with solid conclusions in the rest of the NT. Revelation is not like the NT after the 5th chapter when the vision begins. I'm just saying I've been looking for a long time, listening to many different takes, hearing many opinions and even listening to seemingly unreproachable theological conclusions by the learned. While partitions may help I think a proper organization of the overlaps in the vision are critical.

Well, that's a lot to throw out there all at once. I'd like to more than suggest Revelation must be taken as a whole and cannot be parceled out into stand alone sections, all while resisting a strict chronology and defying theological scholarship. There is order among the chaos but it's not readily available.

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I have heard this many times as an explanation. But you still can't provide a pretrib scene akin to Rev 7:9-14 that provides the Where? When? and Who? There is no last trump on the feast of trumps. It's a memorial of blowing trumpets. The best best you have is Talmudic tradition and that isn't close to divine truth. The only last trump in a series of trumps, so named, associated with the end of the age, Jesus return, and the gathering of the saints, is the 7th trump of Revelation. There is no other. It's amazing you actually think you know what the ancients did not know. How did you arrive at that? Did you raise them from the dead to talk to them or something? I know, you think because it wasn't spelled out or no mention made that no man that even lived before John could have ever been given any insight from the Spirit. So you decide to argue from silence as if that's tantamount to wisdom and understanding. There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written. Facts?! You mean evidence massaged to fit doctrine and dogma? I agree with that. Your timing here is made up. There is zero evidence... Forget it. It's been fun but I'm done here. Blessings.

I literally gave the recipe. Romans 11 is the complete instruction. Yes, but you think the 12 tribes of the 144k are Israeli nationals. They are not. They are in Christ and the seed of Abraham. No. Israel is blinded in part only. Not Jews, not national Israelis, Israel as in Jacob and the seed of Abraham. Jews, Jews, Jews. Not Jews. That's a false religion. Paul clearly says "ISRAEL". False. You'll see. Misinterpretation to fit a culture, not truth or understanding.

Ignoring the evidence. Fine. Even though Paul says this is exactly what happens, the wild branches are grafted into the natural olive tree. Ever grafted? The grafted branch becomes part of the tree to point you can't tell them apart. Ignoring the evidence, again.

This is not evidence for what you say. You assume the 144k are part of some late in the game gathering from which the white, western, pretrib, dispensational 'church' is immune and previously removed. The 144k are the first taken of the only gathering in existence executed immediately prior to God's wrath. You are consistent, but in error. All Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God, they are not a group with their own identity, they are Israel or they are not. The point being it's not the separation/replacement. Gentiles are grafted in, not a separate entity.

Okay.

I don't think I was arguing for that in my response to @The Light. What I see is: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." And: they are before the throne of God For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd This throne exists in time and space. This is quite similar to throne in Rev 4, mentioned 10 times. So there is a clearly a throne and it has a place. I think it a disservice to the text to fail to apply context. Sure ouranos means sky, in context. Do you really think the very much physical throne of our Father is affixed to the place where birds fly? We also see the ones who conquered the beast standing here: "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name." Of course that's a simile but it also has a physical attribute of solidity. This isn't so many noble gasses, it's a wide expanse of something solid that is clear as glass. Also, John records "Then I saw heaven standing open". This seems to imply heaven was previously closed. That means our ability to view God's abode is supernaturally limited, barred from our perceptions. John records this as wrath is imminent: "The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up,". Obviously we are not able to see past the veil of the sky, which veil obscures the abode of God and the heavenly host from our view. Just because we aren't given every detail, scripture has more gaps and unknowns than bridges and knowns, doesn't mean we can simply throw away a cautious approach and plunge forward speculating. And please refrain from this sort of rebuttal: "If one believes that He "abides" anywhere, then he or she has too small a view of God!" I was in a cult in my younger days and similar statements were always the club used to beat one back into line. Possibly I do have 'too small a view' but using statements that play on emotion or introduce a perceived lack is coercion, not discussion.