Its not that you erred in what you say, for it is good that you are studying the scriptures but now remember there are many interpretations of how the end will be, in fact as the lord said "many shall come in my name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many but the end is not yet" so it was done but how can a man tell if he his interpretation concerning the end is correct?

 

For the lord spoke in parables so that them that see will not perceive and them that hear will not understand, so that his secret can be to his people. For I tell you this and this is of a truth. as it is written in Daniel 12.

 

None of the wicked shall understand but the wise shall understand.

 

So during the last days only the lords beloved will understandth whats going on, the world will not as it is written.

 

So how can you tell if the lord gave you the right interpretation of the end?

 

The scripture of truth is like puzzle scattered in far quarters of the earth. and once you gather all the pieces to the puzzle the biggest problem is fitting them together. For the bible is the puzzle and before when it was written but it was just books(book of Daniel or etc how it was in the old days according to the scripture of truth) it wasn't all together.

 

Now all the pieces of the puzzles are gather but who can put them together? as it is written by the apostles, "we know in part and we prophesy in part"

 

but the end of the world is whole.like a pie. Therefore what ever you interpret the end to be it has to match all that god is saying when he is referencing the last days.

 

Now I know how it will be and I tell you, the saints shall surely die but not as the wicked for their death is their sleep. and by blood shall many be made white, and reign with Christ.Them that vile person will have no power over them I say is the remnant. and the abomination that maketh desolate is here and their shall be war.

Edit May 1st, 2020: I just wanted to add that an error on our server has corrupted a small part of our user database, such that some posts are credited to "Guest". This is one such post. This post was authored by Omegaman 3.0 - End of edit.

Your reply touches on something that is always an issue, the idea of interpretation. Whether I am correct or not, I cannot prove nor know for certain. Call it my best educated guess after studying the topic for 35 years as of 2014. I believe I am right of course, otherwise I would change my view, lol. If I come across some evidence to warrant a change, I WILL change my view, perhaps some day, someone will present convincing evidence that I am in error, if I do not discover it myself.

Where I think my understanding and belief is different from many, is that I try not to interpret at all, I just read, and try to understand. If you read my post, and I assume you did, you will have noticed that I did two things - I stated aspects of the doctrine which I accept, and and I stated the scripture that appears to support those points. 

You will have noticed that what I did not do was assert assumption like:

"You see where it says 'elect', that is the Jews!" or:

"See where it says the restrainer?" - that is the Holy Spirit:

Those sorts of things, are interpretations, not reading. I just pointed out scripture and let it speak for itself.

The things that are usually used to demonstrate a pre-tribulation rapture, are interpretations at best, usually they are arguments from silence, or assumed inferences not warranted by the text. Sometimes, there are what appear to be verses torn from their contexts which distorts (though not maliciously) what the Bible says, and it makes the Bible appear to harmonize with a person's present beliefs.

For example, all of the ways people try to see a sudden, secret, any moment visit by Jesus, well, it is just odd, since the text never says any such thing. While I know people do not intend harm, it strikes me as dishonest to treat scripture so carelessly, though many just repeat what they have heard, because they do not know better.

Of course, I just stepped on millions of toes with that statement, but it frustrates me that people cannot see the difference between their assumptions and what the bible actually says and does not say.

In my post I didn't even make an effort to include all the evidences that demonstrate the errors of pre-trib assumptions, I just tried to give positive evidence for a post-trib position, and I did not have to assume or twist anything to do that - just posted scripture. I could still be in error for my understanding, but I do not think my understanding is unreasonable, and I expect that many others might notice that. My main point in my reply, that I would like you to take away, is that stating scripture, is not an interpretation, it is just stating scripture. I pointed out how those scriptures might represent what I have come to believe. If the difference is not obvious, then I just wasted my time, but it will not be the first time I have done that.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond.

- Omegaman

I might just conduct an eschatology trivia game in the chat room on Friday Sept 5th at 7:00 PM Pacific tiime, but if one was thinking of dropping in, one should read the details first.  http://www.omegazine.com/trivia/

- Omegaman

I also believe that Christians will go through the tribulation. The following blog contains similar information to this article with some additional points and is about the same subject.

 

http://doubtbusters.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/8/

 

The following link gives more of a historical perspective as to the origins of the pre-trib false doctrine.

 

http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture-Pre-trib-vs.-Post-trib.pdf

I'm inclined to agree with you Omega.

Too bad you missed the mid trib theory. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (aka 7 bowls poured out) after the beast is revealed in Rev chapter 13. We will be changed at the last trumpet (aka the 7 trumpets) before the beast is revealed in Rev Ch. 13. The man child (with rod of iron which Jesus gives the church earlier in Rev.) is caught up and the woman hidden in the desert for a period of 3.5 years so the beast can be revealed (as in 2thess concerning what withholds must first be removed before the lawless one can be revealed)... and there is a lot more pointing to mid... including the point that the believers still present in body will have to endure at least some of the trib (the first half). After much study of pre and post trib theory I found the support given for each was actually supporting the mid trib theory. Check it out and see.

 Thanks for your input branchgraft, and your admonition to check it out. I have not missed the mid-trib theory, I just do not see hardly any evidence for it personally. I have checked out the things you have mentioned, I just do not understand them as pointing to a mid-trib position.

To be specific:

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We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath (aka 7 bowls poured out) after the beast is revealed in Rev chapter 13

As a post-trib believer, I agree we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Where I disagree, is that God's wrath is AKA the 7 bowls. 1st Thess 5:9 says:

"For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

You assumed understanding is a good example of what I mean about people making assumption, and lifting verses from their contexts, to agree with something they believe. You believe that God's wrath, is the 7 bowls. There is good reason to make that assumption:

And I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out into the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." (Rev 16:1).

 Now, if you check that context of that verse, you will not find that is says these bowls are during Daniels 70th week, the last half of which, Jesus called great tribulation. I personally do not the that tribulation as God's wrath, if it is wrath, it is the wrath of evil men, demons, the beast etc. on the elect of God, whether that means Christians or Jews or both. After that period of time, Jesus returns with His army, and THEN you see God's wrath, not during the tribulation.

By comparison, looking at the context of the verse about not being appointed unto wrath, the verse itself possible explains what it means. It has two things contrasted. One of those things is NOT wrath but the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Christians are saved, others suffer God's wrath for their sin and unbelief. I think that is the more natural understanding of that verse in it's own context. That passage goes on to say:

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch or we might sleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing. 

That part seems to be alluding to the return of Christ and the rapture, which Paul points out in 1st Thess, does not occur until after the tribulation (if I am not reading to much into that, that since Christians martyrs are shown to have died in the tribulation in Rev 20). If you do not see or understand that this is Paul's position (in harmony with other Bible passages) of the sequence of events, let me know and I can flesh it out more, but this blog post was really intended to lay the basics of post-trib eschatology, not be a debate on all of the possibilities. These things have been discussed ad nauseum on the forums themselves, this is just a blog about my thoughts.

Quote

after the beast is revealed in Rev chapter 13. 

I agree, after the beast is revealed. Post-trib rapture theory, IS after the beast is revealed. You seem to suggest that it has to be immediately after the revelation of the beast. I am not seeing that suggested nor specified. Three and one half years after (for example) is still after, if I am missing something, feel free to point it out.

Quote

The man child (with rod of iron which Jesus gives the church earlier in Rev.) is caught up and the woman hidden in the desert for a period of 3.5 years so the beast can be revealed

It is interesting that you would choose that one in a mid-trib rapture context, again, I see it differently. From Rev 13 (this very chapter):

7 And there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, of whom their names have not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the Lamb having been slain.

So, right there, if one wants things that should be taken literally, the beast is at war with the saints (who are the saints?) and is overcoming them. There is think the implication is, that these saints are dying in that war. The beast here, has authority of people of all races, languages, and nationalities. This would seem to indicate that this is a world wide happening. All will worship the beast, except there is an exception clause - those whose names have not been written from the founding of the world in the Lamb's book of life! Christians will not worship the beast, so of course, the beast is wrathful against believers.

Backing up into Rev 12, where you mentioned the man child with the rod of iron, and the woman hidden in the desert for 3.5 years, that is an informative passage! Readers who wish to understand the events of the end, should definitely read that passage.

Now here, I have to admit, that I interpret, the nature of apocalyptic language and visions, is not the same as  literal narrative. Never the less, that does not mean that were are free it just impose any symbolism either. Anyway, let's take a look:

5 And she brought forth a male son, who is about to shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God, and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place having been prepared there by God, so that they should nourish her there one thousand two hundred sixty days.

There, I am taking the "she" to be Israel (in the sense of the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) or who we often refer to as Jews, as it is that lineage, that produces Jesus, the Messiah, the shepherd and ruler, King of King and Lord of Lords. 

Her child, caught up to God is Acts 1:

9 And having said these things, they beholding, He was lifted up, and a cloud hid Him from their eyes. 10 And as they were looking intently into heaven as He was going, then behold, two men in white apparel stood by them, 11 who also said, “Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, having been taken up from you into heaven, will thus come in that manner you beheld Him going into heaven.”

As you probably understand, in prophetic reckoning (and Jewish/Bible chronology), a month is 30 days and a year is twelve of those. Therefore, one thousand two hundred and sixty days, is 3.5 years (half of Daniel's 70th week) as you have already noted. Likely, then this is the mid point if that week where Jesus said the abomination would occur, which is when he said "then there will be great tribulation.

What we are seeing here in Rev 12 then, it appears, is that the Jews will be protected by God (the woman spoken of) in a place provided by God for her protection - 3.5 years.

So here in what appears to me the middle of Daniel's 70th week, we find the Jews (in the region of Jerusalem at least) protected  by God in a place He prepared for them, for 3.5 years. What else happens at that time?

Now you branchgraft, hold to a mid-tribulation position. I want to clarify something for those who might read this, that my terminology might be a bit different than yours, I know it is different that what some use. You might notice that I refer to Daniel's 70th week a lot. Some people talk about the "7 year tribulation" or say that the great tribulation is 7 years long. When you refer to a mid-tribulation rapture, I assume that you mean a rapture in the middle of these 7 years. I do not call the great tribulation as 7 years, because Jesus said "then there will be great tribulation" after the center point of the 7 year period. Therefore, I would see what I think your position is, is the mid-week rapture, not the mid-tribulation rapture, just so people can follow what I am saying.

So what is next? Well, in this mid week, we saw that the Jews are protected from the dragon pursuing the woman (Rev 12 identifies the dragon as Satan, by the way) for the next 3.5 years. I suppose most of the rest of the world, is just under the rule of antichrist, perhaps not even unhappily. The question is, where are the  Christians? Were they raptured before all of this? Nothing in the Bible says that. You are of the opinion that they are raptured at this point, mid-week? What does Rev 12 offer us about this?

15 And out of his mouth the serpent cast water as a river after the woman, so that he might cause her to be carried away by a flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river, which the dragon had cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was angry with the woman, and he went to make to war with the rest of her children keeping the commandments of God and holding the testimony of Jesus.

To re-emphasize that last point:

And the dragon was angry with the woman, and he went to make to war with the rest of her children keeping the commandments of God and holding the testimony of Jesus.

Now, there are perhaps four kinds of people.

1 Unbelieving gentiles, the largest segment of the world.
2 Jews, who are not believers in Messiah, perhaps deceived by the antichrist, and under and submissive to his rule, or perhaps persecuted just because they are Jews.
3 There are the Jews who flee (as they should, from Jerusalem and into God's protection - specified in several places in the Bible), and finally
4 Those who are Spiritual Israel, those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus. To me, that is a description of Christians (aka Messianics), whether Jews or Gentiles the true elect of God.

Therefore, it seems to me that rather than escaping the great tribulation, the Christians are the target of it. Like other passages of scripture, this one is specific that Christians will be persecuted and even killed, in the great tribulation. Hopefully I am among them, unless that is still a long ways off.

3 “Blessed are the poor in the spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

4 Blessed are those mourning, for they will be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they will be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

10 Blessed are those having been persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.

11 Blessed are you when they shall insult you and shall persecute you, and lying shall say all kinds of evil against you on account of Me. 12 Rejoice and exult, because great is your reward in the heavens; for thus they persecuted the prophets before you.

What person in their right mind, does not want the blessings of God? The apostles in Acts got it:

40 And they were persuaded by him. And having called in the apostles, having beaten them, they commanded them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and they released them. 41 Therefore indeed they departed from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the Name. 42 And every day, in the temple and in every house, they did not cease teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

As I said, the blog was not intended to be a refutation of other positions, just a brief explanation for why I believe what I believe about these things,. Responding to your reply, I suppose has served that purpose also but not as briefly as I had intended. Hopefully people reading this blog and the replies to it, will be motivated to discover what the Bible says, and learn from that!

 

Great idea to have written them all out. I dont believe in the pretrib rapture either. There is zero evidence as far as I am concerned. Like ZERO. Im no expert but took much notice of these verses when reading. Of course I wonder if I'm missing something. Id like somebody to give evidence sometime, never heard of it so far. How can it constantly sound like post trib, but be something else? I keep reading the woman in the desert 3 and a half years as when Mary and Joseph went to Egypt to hide from Herod.

Thank you for your reply Pamelasv. I also want to see evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Unfortunetly, I am usually offered things like "we do not know the time", which is not evidence, or "God would not let His people suffer", which is absurd since He has and does allow His people to suffer. Sometimes we hear "well, it does not say that there will not be a pre-trib rapture".  Some people even try to define a doctrine into existence by stating things like "the Rapture is Jesus catching up His saints before the tribulation".

These sorts of things are just not sufficient to warrant belief, and I eagerly await the day when someone finds verses that tell me my assumptions are incorrect. 

Maybe there are some, but if so, they seem to me to be a well kept secret.

Thank you for your comments - Omegaman